Jezebel does hit piece on Winston Wu and Happier Abroad!

[Aleknovy]

She does make a few very good points, but I disagree with her overall message that America has a female loneliness epidemic.

There is a female loneliness epidemic, but it's more fair to deem it self-imposed than you would for the male one. Because

A) all of these women are still getting asked out
B) If they asked a guy out, he wouldn't mock them, bully them, insult them, or spit in their face

All of these "lonely women" are just 1-2 steps away from a boyfriend they want, all they have to do is ask. From the studies I've seen, women just don't get rejected much when doing direct escalation. Both in absolute terms (her ratios of yes-es and no-s will be far better than the ratios an average man experience). And not only will she experience a much lower ratio of NOs, but men are very, very, very nice when saying no. While, even the most polite, most courteous average men will run into mocking, humiliation and shaming if he asks women out. Women won't run into such a thing. Men just don't treat female askers badly - never happens.

I do know very nice girls who are dateless and lonely due to shyness and introverted personalities, but such women are not very common.

Even in their cases they still get asked out. Isn't it amazing!?!? A guy can be the most outgoing and extroverted charming guy on the planet, and perfectly decent looking, but he could live a 1000 years on this planet and not get asked out even once.

I do know women who literally are hermits, and only leave their house when they have to - but they still get asked out This is without showering, wearing flip flops, being dressed in something no better than pajamas, but they still get asked out at least a few times a year. Any "nice girl" who is lonely is only such because he rejects the men who ask her out. And no, she isn't getting asked out by monsters or disfigured horses.

they might not be 10s, they might in fact be a 5 or a 6, but should they have to suffer because of that? American men are spoiled and are used to having everything handed to them.

What she defines as men being spoiled, is men wanting to be treated like a human being. I've often heard this from women, and it's just absurd.

Whenever a male acquaintance of mine will explain in front of women why we men (as a gender) no longer pursue or ask women out , the females on the tables always come back with "OHHHHH YOU SO SPOILED, YOU WANT EVERYTHING HANDED DOWN TO YOU - you want a dating life without investing any effort!!!".

How did wanting a 50/50 deal get perverted into being spoiled? Men have opted out because they have tired of having to do 100% of the work, while women do 0% of the work. Men are asking that women take 50% of the burden, and that is met with "oh, you want everything handed to you". WTF?

Get up from your "well of loneliness" and ASK A GIRL OUT!

These are the same people who LINK TO and support sex-harassment websites that propose mocking, humiliating and subjectively declaring men criminals, for cases such as saying hello with a smile (not touching the woman, not coming close, just saying hi while passing her by). Yes, these are the same people who say that it is sex-harassment to smile at a woman and say good morning. They defend women who insult men who had approached and introduced themselves in the most courteous of ways. They have pages and pages of submitted reports of women ranting about a man MERELY smiling at them (nothing more).

THEY SUPPORT a case where men risk, jail, firing, imprisonment, mockery, humiliation and leper-treatment when trying to meet women. And they don't SEE THE IRONY that they're telling men to take MORE risks? Incredible. If they did 50% of the asking out, they wouldn't be full of crap. But right now, as it stands, they're utterly full of crap. I've seen all the studies, women are faaaaaaar behind on doing their fare share. Look at the studies on how much women make first moves etc (it's embarrassingly low).

This should be an embarrassment for their gender. And until they get off their lazy behinds and start asking guys out, men need to boycott them. Laziness is not excuseable in the 21st century. I mean come oooon, we're going to have flying cars soon, but these people can't ask a guy out? Grow up.

[Falcon]

Why do a lot of men in Anglo countries fear rejection so much? Why are more and more men becoming so afraid to ask out women? Because instead of simply saying "no," the woman can use sexual harassment lawsuits to reject suitors instead. This is not a joke (especially in the workplace). Type in "sexual harassment asking someone out" and "falsely accused of sexual harassment" into Google and you will get PLENTY of results.

For instance, there is a doctor in Canada who was forced out of the country simply because he asked a woman out to dinner - see viewtopic.php?t=12430 .

And look at this ( http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 939AAF4TqY ):

once I told a girl at work "thats a nice shirt". The next day I saw her I asked her "How is your day going" and engaged in some small talk. The next day I got warned for being too forward by boss and that I needed to ease back. I suspect the girl I was talking too reported me. needless to say talking to co-workers is always very risky so unless your a 1000% sure the feeling is mutual you run the risk of sexual harassment especially if your dialog with your co-workers is taken as flirtatious.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 400AAX0OsY

Recently I asked a woman out at the mall. She works at Cinnabon. All I said was you want to go see Twilight and she just ignored me and rang up my purchase. I never said anything to her after that. However, when I went back today to get a cinnabon a manager asked me to stand to one side and he came out from behind the counter and informed me that she said I sexually harassed her. He said it might be best if I didn't come back. By this time, other customers were looking at me and I felt humiliated. I didn't do anything wrong, I didn't know asking someone out was considered harassment.

http://www.laborlawtalk.com/archive/ind ... 71778.html

There are countless more related stories of men being accused of sexual harassment simply for asking someone out politely.

[Winston]

Hey check this out. This guy on YouTube named Bernard Chapin defended me in this great rant about the Jezebel hit piece on me. In it, he makes a lot of good solid common sense points. I like the last statement in part 1 where he says that men's sexuality can't be manipulated, but women's can. He also correctly IDed the feminists as "social deconstructionists" who think that everything is all cultural and that nothing is natural or human nature. So true.

Here is part 1 and 2.

[have2fly]

Aleknovy,
Falcon,

YOU GUYS ARE MY HEROES! Spot on!

I am totally scared to even look at girls directly. During my first employment at local retail store, I jokingly was standing behind another girl that worked there smiling waiting for her to turn around (you know, this kind of stuff is so common in Ukraine among co-workers to just laugh and smile, crack jokes), she turned around and reported me to a manager for "sexual looks"! WTFFF? It was my first 2 months in America, I quickly learned that I am supposed to stay away from American women! Now I have an "instant block" in my head before I approach any women, but I turn off this block when I see foreign women because such thing NEVER happened to me anywhere abroad! And I did live and travel abroad extensively! When I lived in Ukraine, I could easily give a girl I just met a friendly hug and a kiss on a cheek! No one would even suspect "harassment", everyone is totally cool about it. Girls over there actually complain to friends that "no men talked to me today, whole day and no one noticed me". Foreign women take it as an insult when you DON'T talk to them, American women take it as an insult when you DO talk to them! WTFFF? Where is the logic here?

Therefore, all these laws are making life miserable for good guys! Good guys get scared away from talking to women while douchebags and idiots that do drugs will keep on talking to women because they don't care and never did care. No wonder women end up in a relationship with an idiot!

Either women start talking in this country or we will all end up buying robot companions! There is no trust between people in America, I see this as a primary reason.

Aleknovy - numbers! Totally well defined! I will remember that one! I wish I would find this forum while I was in college! I would've slammed those bitches so hard at every party I would go to. During college I thought I was completely sure I was lacking social skills etc and I have to improve. Now I know better.

[jamesbond]

I am totally scared to even look at girls directly. During my first employment at local retail store, I jokingly was standing behind another girl that worked there smiling waiting for her to turn around (you know, this kind of stuff is so common in Ukraine among co-workers to just laugh and smile, crack jokes), she turned around and reported me to a manager for "sexual looks"! WTFFF? It was my first 2 months in America, I quickly learned that I am supposed to stay away from American women! Now I have an "instant block" in my head before I approach any women, but I turn off this block when I see foreign women because such thing NEVER happened to me anywhere abroad! And I did live and travel abroad extensively! When I lived in Ukraine, I could easily give a girl I just met a friendly hug and a kiss on a cheek! No one would even suspect "harassment", everyone is totally cool about it. Girls over there actually complain to friends that "no men talked to me today, whole day and no one noticed me". Foreign women take it as an insult when you DON'T talk to them, American women take it as an insult when you DO talk to them! WTFFF? Where is the logic here?

How true! In America there are 'sexual harassment' laws in the workplace which means LOOKING at a female co-worker could be considered 'sexual harassment' if the woman feels "threatened" by the way the man looked at her! WTF?

Good rule of thumb is to not talk to female coworkers about anything that is NOT work related and do not look at them and do not flirt with them.

[Aleknovy]

Aleknovy,
Falcon,

YOU GUYS ARE MY HEROES! Spot on!

I am totally scared to even look at girls directly. During my first employment at local retail store, I jokingly was standing behind another girl that worked there smiling waiting for her to turn around (you know, this kind of stuff is so common in Ukraine among co-workers to just laugh and smile, crack jokes), she turned around and reported me to a manager for "sexual looks"! WTFFF? It was my first 2 months in America, I quickly learned that I am supposed to stay away from American women! Now I have an "instant block" in my head before I approach any women, but I turn off this block when I see foreign women because such thing NEVER happened to me anywhere abroad! And I did live and travel abroad extensively! When I lived in Ukraine, I could easily give a girl I just met a friendly hug and a kiss on a cheek! No one would even suspect "harassment", everyone is totally cool about it. Girls over there actually complain to friends that "no men talked to me today, whole day and no one noticed me". Foreign women take it as an insult when you DON'T talk to them, American women take it as an insult when you DO talk to them! WTFFF? Where is the logic here?

Therefore, all these laws are making life miserable for good guys! Good guys get scared away from talking to women while douchebags and idiots that do drugs will keep on talking to women because they don't care and never did care. No wonder women end up in a relationship with an idiot!

Either women start talking in this country or we will all end up buying robot companions! There is no trust between people in America, I see this as a primary reason.

Aleknovy - numbers! Totally well defined! I will remember that one! I wish I would find this forum while I was in college! I would've slammed those bitches so hard at every party I would go to. During college I thought I was completely sure I was lacking social skills etc and I have to improve. Now I know better.

I might insult some people here, but I'll say it anyway. Other parts of the world aren't much better. Sure, they're slightly better than the USA, but women everywhere do this.

I'm in eastern europe, and men have these exact same points and rants about here, and how women act to us here. Some guys forget the "stranger candy" factor, where some of you are treated better just because you're a foreigner in the country. Women here treat our men just as badly as american women treat american men.

[odbo]

I might insult some people here, but I'll say it anyway. Other parts of the world aren't much better. Sure, they're slightly better than the USA, but women everywhere do this.

I'm in eastern europe, and men have these exact same points and rants about here, and how women act to us here. Some guys forget the "stranger candy" factor, where some of you are treated better just because you're a foreigner in the country. Women here treat our men just as badly as american women treat american men.

You're only insulting our intelligence. People need to stop speaking in absolutes because everything is relative. If the situation isn't perfect that doesn't mean it's "just as bad" as with American women. People who haven't lived in the US have no idea how thoroughly sick this place is. Second of all Eastern Europe is huge. Certain places like Czech Republic are famous for anti-social/self-centered/stuck-up women.

[Aleknovy]

I might insult some people here, but I'll say it anyway. Other parts of the world aren't much better. Sure, they're slightly better than the USA, but women everywhere do this.

I'm in eastern europe, and men have these exact same points and rants about here, and how women act to us here. Some guys forget the "stranger candy" factor, where some of you are treated better just because you're a foreigner in the country. Women here treat our men just as badly as american women treat american men.

You're only insulting our intelligence. People need to stop speaking in absolutes because everything is relative. If the situation isn't perfect that doesn't mean it's "just as bad" as with American women. People who haven't lived in the US have no idea how thoroughly sick this place is. Second of all Eastern Europe is huge. Certain places like Czech Republic are famous for anti-social/self-centered/stuck-up women.

I forgot to insert a relative qualifier only on the third sentence. I qualified the first two times. I said

"Other parts of the world aren't much better. Sure, they're slightly better than the USA, but women everywhere do this. "

Sue me for missing the qualifier "almost" on the third time.

[Aleknovy]

I might insult some people here, but I'll say it anyway. Other parts of the world aren't much better. Sure, they're slightly better than the USA, but women everywhere do this.

I'm in eastern europe, and men have these exact same points and rants about here, and how women act to us here. Some guys forget the "stranger candy" factor, where some of you are treated better just because you're a foreigner in the country. Women here treat our men just as badly as american women treat american men.

You're only insulting our intelligence. People need to stop speaking in absolutes because everything is relative. If the situation isn't perfect that doesn't mean it's "just as bad" as with American women. People who haven't lived in the US have no idea how thoroughly sick this place is. Second of all Eastern Europe is huge. Certain places like Czech Republic are famous for anti-social/self-centered/stuck-up women.

And also, you're not a native, so you can never fully know what a native male experiences. You can only know how badly eastern-european men get greated if you were one.

When an american comes into my country he sticks out like a sore thumb long before he opens his mouth. Women smile at him, treat him nicely, stalk him, approach him. They decide to treat him differently long before he opens his mouth, they can detect he is a foreigner long before he's opened his mouth.

[jamesbond]

When an american comes into my country he sticks out like a sore thumb long before he opens his mouth. Women smile at him, treat him nicely, stalk him, approach him. They decide to treat him differently long before he opens his mouth, they can detect he is a foreigner long before he's opened his mouth.

What country are you from Aleknovy? I would love to have good looking women smile at me, treat me nice and approach me!

How do women in your country know that a guy is an American before he even opens his mouth?

In America, men are ignored and women don't even make eye contact with men. It would be nice to be in a country where women were nice and friendly towards men and actually flirted with men!

[Ned Zeppelin]

Jezebel is a bitch - DOUG BARRY (the author of http://jezebel.com/5873827/founder-of-p ... f-marriage) is a mangina! What a weirdo - he's a disgrace to the male gender. Let's see how far this closet-case gets with women - he'd probably only be able to do their hair. Winston is right that marriage isn't worth it for men, yet he's ridiculed by this fag!

I posted pretty much the same sentiment calling Barry out as a magina in the commentary section along with the very valid reasons I personally have for not getting married...and my comment never got approved. Hahh! I wonder why.

That is the difference between feminists and the HA movement. Every comment has to be approved by their moderators before being posted, and obviously if you dissagree with them, your comments will not be posted. At least people like Keylis were allowed to make their case here. I'm sure there were many other feminsts in the past who have been allowed to post their opinions as well.

[lavezzi]

People who haven't lived in the US have no idea how thoroughly sick this place is.

Trust me, 5 days is enough to gauge it. I thought I lived in an anti-social environment, if that's true, America (or at least New York) is nothing less than a diseased alien planet.

I could sense it the moment I got off the plane; highly cynical, snobby people everywhere. I'ts clear how living in that environment your whole life would make any normal human being totally insecure. But it failed to have the predicted affect on me as I was not adapted to it for long enough. I just found it funny. I couldn't take anyone seriously, which made it easy for me to be fearless in approaching without being in any way self-conscious. From my experience, America is technically an easy place to get girls (just like everywhere else) but it's far too likely you'll be too insecure to take advantage of that fact. Having said that, the only thing these women could possibly satisfy is your sex drive. I could not stand to be around any of them for 5 seconds; the thought of a lifetime with one of them is unbearable. So you're better off not being able to 'get' American women for whatever reason, in order to be led to discovering the fact that real women still exist in other parts of the world.

[Falcon]

Once back in high school, I was sitting in the quad, just stared into empty space since I was really tired. I wasn't looking at anything, and was just zoning out. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, a very angry Asian-American girl yelled at me, "Can you stop staring at me? OMG!" ... I didn't even realize that she existed until she started screaming at me! What was that all about!

Now check out this pamphlet published by the United Nations WomenWatch http://www.un.org/womenwatch/osagi/pdf/whatissh.pdf .

What is Sexual Harassment

· Unwanted pressure for dates.
· Giving personal gifts.
· Hanging around a person.
· Looking a person up and down (elevator eyes).
· Staring at someone.
· Repeatedly asking out a person who is not interested.

From the looks of those bullet points, we might as well get rid of dating altogether.


Here's something worth quoting from Winston.

Also, look what I saw in my guestbook today. Sometimes American girls will even call security if you flirt with them! This has happened to me a few times too!

http://www.ultraguest.com/view/1200586414

A friend of mine forwarded me several of your articals. I live in New Jersey. There have been times when I was just trying to be friendly with ladys in the Moorestown mall. Like girls working in the food court or clothing stores. There have been a few times. I have been even threatened by the mall security. Just for saying hi to the girls. Can you or anyone tell me. Whats up with this. Why are the ladys so paranoid in this country. I,m not a monster. I don,t even kill bugs. I,m a very kind gentle loving person.

OK. Take a look at these threads from SocialPhobiaWorld.com:

http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/why-do ... man-19611/
http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/love-shyness-719/

It's clear that many of those guys aren't technically love-shy. Here's what they're afraid of (from page 1 of "Why do love-shy men NOT want to show they like/love a woman?"):

No, the worst thing she can do is to make it publicly known that you have emotions for her, and how unheard-of that is. She can get scared and call the police, and tell them that you made unwanted sexual advances on her, simply for having said that you actually like her a lot.

Yes, and what about the possibly destroyed career, or the problems that can arise from such an unprovidential situation?

the other reason is this: SEXUAL attraction is a very touchy subject. Expressing sexual attraction can make you look like a pervert. You never know when it's right. Sexual feelings, ARE something to be careful about. You don't know if the woman will like it or not, say you are sexually harrassing her, etc. and out of respect I don't want to be too explicit about them.

that goes for "love" feelings also, because it's all sexual.

maybe I just didn't grow up around people who could have shown me that it's ok to have and show sexual/romantic feelings toward a woman. To me I feel like a beast if I don't know that it's ok. Even when people tell me that it is ok, I don't. It can ruin your professional career, everything because you are RISKING IT. Sexual harassment is not something to **** with, obviously. And many girls use it to their advantage as you can see.

and that's why I'm not at all ok about showing such feelings with women. And I feel it is very wrong for women (or men) to think you are gay, or weak, unmasculine, p***y because of this. I think it is also wrong for a woman to consider you asexual, and therefore never developing, and considering you for "romance" or anything, even calling it OFFENSIVE because you are not overtly sexual with her.

That guy isn't kidding at all. American sexual harassment laws are very harsh and are now widely abused by many women. But if you look at the responses to his post, most people think he's being way too paranoid. He's not.

Things aren't much different in Canada, such as this ridiculous situation:
viewtopic.php?t=12430
("In Canada, asking for a date can bring a harassment claim")

I've had these fears myself, but others told me I was being too paranoid. Well, I don't need to put my hand in a pot of boiling water to know that I should be avoiding it. Similarly, I should not have to learn things the hard way by first getting security called on me ... by then it will be too late. Try to get a mate in your bed = Wake up with a mate in jail the next day. Or, if you try to pick up girls the wrong way at school (whatever the "wrong" way might possibly be), you might end up going to the local state penitentiary instead of going to the local state college.

[Falcon]

Poor guys. http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/why-do ... oman-19611 (I highly recommend all of you to read this thread.)

It is better, yes, unless you know that she can't do any lasting harm. -- Simply because you make yourself very vulnerable by letting her know. She can destroy you emotionally, sometimes even professionally. The moment you tell her, you lose control over the situation. She can do whatever she wants with that information and it's not too unlikely that she will (ab)use it to ridicule you, sometimes even publicly.

Quote:
Yeah I mean the worst she can do is say she doesn't like you that way...
No, the worst thing she can do is to make it publicly known that you have emotions for her, and how unheard-of that is. She can get scared and call the police, and tell them that you made unwanted sexual advances on her, simply for having said that you actually like her a lot.

I admit, it doesn't happen to many people, but then, many people are just normal and have social lives, and are socially accepted. Who would dare to do such a thing to someone who is accepted by the shared group of friends?

Quote:
And if she's really mean and harsh about it then she's not worth it in the first place!
Yes, and what about the possibly destroyed career, or the problems that can arise from such an unprovidential situation?

It really depends on who you are. Not everyone is allowed to be so brave to simply share the perceived emotions with the lady of preference.

most of us shy guys can express our feelings for a girl but not for a very long time. for me, i must be ABSOLUTELY positive shes into me or i wont go for it ever. no1 is right, theres the ridicule thing, the sexual harassment thing, the being seen as weak thing...its potentially dangerous. though i know im a damn nice guy that girls would like and have liked before, i cant express interest in a girl cuz she has the potential to make things harder on me. when you get rejected, you feel like ****. period. PS, a girl wont ruin your career thats crap. she does have the potential to wreck your confidence/self esteem and make it particularly nasty. and being a girl, of course shell tell her friends about the pathetic guy that tried to show interest in her...friggin girls, man, so amazing and yet so frustrating...

no she CAN ruin your rep. she CAN if she wants, say that you harrassed her. Coming up with proof, or the story is another thing. Women have all the rights in court.

Well I had the worst experience of my life when a girl I was in love with led me on for a really long time and when I finally called her out on it she acted like I did something wrong. Since then I have huge panic attacks anytime I even think about asking a girl out on a date or telling her how I feel. I hate banging my head against the wall when I chicken out but the emotional scar that other girl left on me is still pretty fresh although it was about 4 years ago. The main reason I haven't been able to just move on and forget about it is because she goes to the same college I go to and is the same major so we've had several classes since then so it makes it even more difficult just to move on.

Quote:
Well, i don't see how just letting a girl know your true feelings for her can ruin a career, let alone a life..
Women can destroy your career. Even if you are just in school/university. It's enough for one to claim that you sexually harassed her, or concoct a plan with her friends to publicly debase you - simply because it's fun to see someone suffer. Especially with emotional involvement. Cinematic event.

Assume she just says that you got too close to her, sexually harassed her, just because you said you liked her a lot, what will the people think of you, simply because of the story about you that she distributed? Sooner or later, the entire university will know - and people do care, because it's fun to torture someone - and you won't be able to ever again approach a woman there without her having to think that there might be something true about the story. It can even indirectly lower your grades, if, in school, teachers get to hear the story.

Some might even go to the police and you will have to deal with the unpleasant investigations.

Quote:
Everyone's allowed to!!! There's no law saying that some people can't..
No, that's not true. There's an unspoken law, which our society appears to agree on, that makes it a crime for certain men to express their emotions towards the woman they secretly love.

no1 is right. All these activities are - if only indirectly - sexually motivated. Sexuality is always an integral part of romantic attraction. Many women will think that you want to hurt them, or get into their pants, and feel disgusted simply because you talk to them. Or hold a door(!) open for them.

I emphasized the 'you' above, as it really depends on who you are. If you are a socially integrated person, someone who enjoys the group's acceptance, you can even touch her indecently, and she won't feel bad about it. I have seen that happen on a daily basis back in school. We were all between 18 and 21, and my impression of women is really not something that I irrationally come up with.

Quote:
Coming up with proof, or the story is another thing.
Indeed, but who actually cares about a proof? Most people will simply believe it because it brings more fun into their lives. With time passing, the story will fade, but some remnant thoughts of you being a sexual pervert will prevail, likely for their entire lifetime.

Plus that there are cases where you have to stick to that environment you live in, because of various reasons. I moved to this city a couple of weeks ago in order to go to university here. I will have to stay here until I get my degree, such that I can move on successfully (career-wise). Jeopardizing this plan by approaching a woman I find attractive would be foolish.

Quote:
I wish guys wouldn't ignore girls when they like us.
I wish girls would be more rational, less emotional and more open to people who aren't socially accepted or integrated for some reason. And, eh, there are so many things I wish girls would do or be like, but that's simply not going to happen for a long time to come.

Quote:
If I really like him the shyness goes away and getting to know him motivates me to talk to him.
What would make you start liking him?

Well, when the majority of the woman I have seen have been the same way..

I once said hello, and how were you doing, and this girl asked me "Why are you talking to me I don't talk to strangers, leave me alone". I continued and asked her why? she said "just leave me alone".. and I said .. "but I dont understand..." and then she just yelled at me.

I bet if I "looked good" she wouldn't care. Maybe she was having a bad day.

I see the same girl at the gym and school all the time. I'm sure by now she thinks I'm nothing more than a creep who stares at her across the gym...because I don't say hi, I don't smile at her because I can't.

[have2fly]

And also, you're not a native, so you can never fully know what a native male experiences. You can only know how badly eastern-european men get greated if you were one.

I am the one! So let me guess, you live in Poland or Czech Republic? Girls could be stuck up and picky up there, but no one will drag you to court for "sexual harassment", it is unheard of in Ukraine or Russia for sure! Yes, some girls do use "the rape card", but again, they have to prove it etc. In Moldova girls have no rights at all, for example, but they look amazing.