Are those who push the proletariat work ethic degenerates?

[Pixel--Dude]

In Anglo countries work is a religion and a cult as well. You had better not criticize the obsessive work culture in Anglo countries or people will get angry. How dare you want to live a life where you are happy and satisfied? You were put on this planet to serve your corporate masters!

One thing I have noticed is that people who are workaholics, have no interests or hobbies outside of their jobs. They simply live to work and have no life outside of their job. This is really sad but true for a lot of people in Anglo countries.

A lot of the time people are too exhausted from the 40-60 hour working week to pursue any hobbies or interests. But you are right. There are those whose passions and interests are work itself. Such people are no different to mindless automatons. I hate work and I think it is shit, I wouldn't mind doing my bit to help in a community etc, but being reduced to a number and then seen as "human resources" boils my piss. I'm honestly not surprised so many people just commit suicide. The proletariat lifestyle is depressing as f**k.

[Pixel--Dude]

In Anglo countries work is a religion and a cult as well. You had better not criticize the obsessive work culture in Anglo countries or people will get angry. How dare you want to live a life where you are happy and satisfied? You were put on this planet to serve your corporate masters!

One thing I have noticed is that people who are workaholics, have no interests or hobbies outside of their jobs. They simply live to work and have no life outside of their job. This is really sad but true for a lot of people in Anglo countries.

A lot of the time people are too exhausted from the 40-60 hour working week to pursue any hobbies or interests. But you are right. There are those whose passions and interests are work itself. Such people are no different to mindless automatons. I hate work and I think it is shit, I wouldn't mind doing my bit to help in a community etc, but being reduced to a number and then seen as "human resources" boils my piss. I'm honestly not surprised so many people just commit suicide. The proletariat lifestyle is depressing as f**k.

[MrMan]

Those proletarians who themselves push society's cult of hard work are indeed degenerates. You are right to compare them to the villainous house slave Stephen from Django Unchained.

It has been a while since I have seen it, but I recall two killers come in and starts shooting up his home, and Stephen picks up a rifle and fires back, right? Why is he a villain? Because he's a slave defending his master's house? In his era, he wouldn't have seen that as a crime.

It's an awesome movie. Stephen is the house slave who buys into the racist ideology and values his position as the right hand of Calvin. He sees himself as above the slaves who work the fields and he is a major antagonist in preventing Django from reuniting with his lover, who is a slave of Calvin. Leonardo DiCaprio was brilliant in this movie. He improvised some of his lines and slammed something into the table which cut all his hand for real (I think it was a crystal decanter or something like that) he kept performing afterwards though. He deserved an Oscar for his performance in this movie.

But the reason Lucas88 and myself refer to this certain subset of people as Stephens is because they exhibit the same behaviour as Stephen. They are "slaves" in the work place the same as everyone else, yet they see themselves as the house slave and do shitty things like report people for having a couple of minutes too long on break or not following some arbitrary procedure. Stephens love toiling away for some company. Whereas people like Lucas88 and myself prefer freedom to pursue our own goals, to live our own dreams rather than be a cog in the machine of someone else's.

I spent many years in graduate school, forgoing income, working, waiting, etc. Now I have a position that gives me a great deal of autonomy in my daily life. I may have to be at a certain place at a certain time 8 or 10 hours a week. I can do most of my work from home, etc.

But the complicated organizations where people operate as 'cogs in the machine' have enable some of the complicated innovations that you now enjoy. Would there be aircraft that could carry us around as we travel around the world? Before the development of the assembly line, automobiles were much lower quality inventions far out of the reach of the average man because of costs. Turning people into 'cogs' in the assembly line production system brought costs way down. Management taking responsibility for how work was to be performed to fit into a larger overall design made low cost production of automobiles possible.

if working as a 'cog' doesn't fit your skills and personality and you have something else productive to do to exchange for your food, shelter, etc., that's good for you. But we should appreciate that other people's labor, those who do work as cogs, enable us to enjoy some of the other products and services that we use. We are using Internet networks, smart phones, and computers to communicate. These were developed and are maintained by complicated organizations where many people work as 'cogs in the machine.'

[Seeker]

Doesn't the OP mean PROTESTANT work ethic? The modern use of the word "proletariat" comes from Marx and was used to refer to the working class in the Marxist sense. I've never heard of the term proletariat work ethic.

[Cornfed]

The modern use of the word "proletariat" comes from Marx and was used to refer to the working class in the Marxist sense. I've never heard of the term proletariat work ethic.

The commies used it to refer to people who weren't part of the ruling system - i.e. non-Jews basically.

[Seeker]

It meant nothing to do with Jew and non–Jew, it meant not being a part of the capitalist class, most of whom were not Jews then or now.

[Cornfed]

It meant nothing to do with Jew and non–Jew, it meant not being a part of the capitalist class, most of whom were not Jews then or now.

So how do you account for Trotsky's statement that a poor Ukrainian priest would not be part of the proletariat whereas bankers like Jacob Schiff were?

[Seeker]

I don't give a damn about Trotsky's definition. The Marxist term referred to those who have to sell their labour to survive.

[Cornfed]

I don't give a damn about Trotsky's definition. The Marxist term referred to those who have to sell their labour to survive.

Trotsky was a prominent Marxist. Lots of Marxists call themselves Trotskyists. Lots of other Marxists at the time agreed with Trotsky. Your statement is extremely silly.

[Seeker]

So what? Trot didn't define it. Unless we agree upon a definition of the term which Marx already defined then there's no point in talking about it further.

[Pixel--Dude]

Those proletarians who themselves push society's cult of hard work are indeed degenerates. You are right to compare them to the villainous house slave Stephen from Django Unchained.

It has been a while since I have seen it, but I recall two killers come in and starts shooting up his home, and Stephen picks up a rifle and fires back, right? Why is he a villain? Because he's a slave defending his master's house? In his era, he wouldn't have seen that as a crime.

It's an awesome movie. Stephen is the house slave who buys into the racist ideology and values his position as the right hand of Calvin. He sees himself as above the slaves who work the fields and he is a major antagonist in preventing Django from reuniting with his lover, who is a slave of Calvin. Leonardo DiCaprio was brilliant in this movie. He improvised some of his lines and slammed something into the table which cut all his hand for real (I think it was a crystal decanter or something like that) he kept performing afterwards though. He deserved an Oscar for his performance in this movie.

But the reason Lucas88 and myself refer to this certain subset of people as Stephens is because they exhibit the same behaviour as Stephen. They are "slaves" in the work place the same as everyone else, yet they see themselves as the house slave and do shitty things like report people for having a couple of minutes too long on break or not following some arbitrary procedure. Stephens love toiling away for some company. Whereas people like Lucas88 and myself prefer freedom to pursue our own goals, to live our own dreams rather than be a cog in the machine of someone else's.

I spent many years in graduate school, forgoing income, working, waiting, etc. Now I have a position that gives me a great deal of autonomy in my daily life. I may have to be at a certain place at a certain time 8 or 10 hours a week. I can do most of my work from home, etc.

But the complicated organizations where people operate as 'cogs in the machine' have enable some of the complicated innovations that you now enjoy. Would there be aircraft that could carry us around as we travel around the world? Before the development of the assembly line, automobiles were much lower quality inventions far out of the reach of the average man because of costs. Turning people into 'cogs' in the assembly line production system brought costs way down. Management taking responsibility for how work was to be performed to fit into a larger overall design made low cost production of automobiles possible.

if working as a 'cog' doesn't fit your skills and personality and you have something else productive to do to exchange for your food, shelter, etc., that's good for you. But we should appreciate that other people's labor, those who do work as cogs, enable us to enjoy some of the other products and services that we use. We are using Internet networks, smart phones, and computers to communicate. These were developed and are maintained by complicated organizations where many people work as 'cogs in the machine.'

I get what you are saying about goods and services and all the rest of it. Capitalism has helped push innovation which in turn has helped us advance technologically. But now we have reached a point where most labour can be automated. Robots taking peoples jeeeeeerrrbs should be seen as something positive, but of course in a capitalist system automation of labour just means more people using food banks -_-

I think robots could be cogs in the machine. Automate all the menial jobs and allow more people time and freedom for vocational training. Take the strain off the NHS, teach more people to be doctors and nurses. Teach all kids first aid at school. Etc. There are many things people could do to make life better for everyone.

Capitalism has just become an unsustainable zombie of its former self. Instead of having an economic system which exists to support the lives of human beings we now have human beings which exist to support the economic system instead. Capitalism is Uroboros! The serpent eating its own tail. Nobody can flourish under this system as it is designed to keep everyone down and in economic servitude or wage slavery. The power has been tipped so far to one side the whole thing is going to collapse in on itself eventually anyway. Corporations monopolise everything and small independent businesses don't stand a chance competing with them. Suicides are on the rise, environmental damage, most of which is caused by Corporations, is reaching the point of no return. (Pretty sure we're already past it actually)

Take the pharmaceutical industry as an example. Do you really think that these corporations, because that's what they are, are really in the business of curing diseases like cancer? Or even covid? If they were they would be in the business of putting themselves out of business. Their only option to continue growing as companies is to create drugs which simply alleviate symptoms rather than cure disease entirely. How messed up is that?!

f**k this system! I support complete and uncompromising freedom of the individual. Not an economic system of clandestine slavery. Not saying I have all the answers. Just saying capitalism sucks ass. f**k this system.

[Lucas88]

Doesn't the OP mean PROTESTANT work ethic? The modern use of the word "proletariat" comes from Marx and was used to refer to the working class in the Marxist sense. I've never heard of the term proletariat work ethic.

No, the OP used the term "proletariat work ethic" to refer to the attitude of those working-class people who have imbibed modern industrial society's "work ethic" (i.e., love of relentless work) despite being lowly worker drones themselves, are enthusiastic about their own drudgery and shame anybody who doesn't show the same level of enthusiasm for work, often calling us "lazy" and portraying us as "immoral". They're often the kind of company shill who claims to be passionate about the company even though they work for minimum wage and will report other working-class employees for spending one minute too much on their break even though most people are only there for the paycheck. Pixel--Dude has to put up with those kinds of people at his workplace in real life. He and I humorously refer to them as "Stephens" from the villain Stephen from Django Unchained (see videos).

Proletariat isn't strictly a Marxist term although Marx did give it his own interpretation. The term actually goes back to the Latin terms Proletarius and Proles which in Roman society referred to the lowest class of laborers. Even today some non-Marxists refer to the working class and especially the less cultured and more lumpen specimens of that group as proletarian, often in a derogatory way.

I spent many years in graduate school, forgoing income, working, waiting, etc. Now I have a position that gives me a great deal of autonomy in my daily life. I may have to be at a certain place at a certain time 8 or 10 hours a week. I can do most of my work from home, etc.

But the complicated organizations where people operate as 'cogs in the machine' have enable some of the complicated innovations that you now enjoy. Would there be aircraft that could carry us around as we travel around the world? Before the development of the assembly line, automobiles were much lower quality inventions far out of the reach of the average man because of costs. Turning people into 'cogs' in the assembly line production system brought costs way down. Management taking responsibility for how work was to be performed to fit into a larger overall design made low cost production of automobiles possible.

if working as a 'cog' doesn't fit your skills and personality and you have something else productive to do to exchange for your food, shelter, etc., that's good for you. But we should appreciate that other people's labor, those who do work as cogs, enable us to enjoy some of the other products and services that we use. We are using Internet networks, smart phones, and computers to communicate. These were developed and are maintained by complicated organizations where many people work as 'cogs in the machine.'

Some work cultists like to make the argument that relentless industry is necessary for the development and upkeep of advanced technological civilization but they fail to understand that the question is a matter of degrees. Work cultists don't simply want people to be productive; they want work to be the center of everybody's lives, they want everybody to be subjected to long hours and strict work discipline, they want people to live to work! But the modern workweek is wholly unnatural. It is only driving droves of people to stress, depression, mental illness and despair. Human beings are simply not supposed to live like that! Fortunately in our high-tech 21st century human beings have no reason to work as much as they do. The workweek could and in my opinion should be reduced through the implementation of automation and labor-saving technologies. Unfortunately the corporate masters don't want to reduce the workweek and lessen the toiling worker drones' drudgery despite the possibility of automation. So many poor depressed souls continue to toil in meaningless jobs for a paycheck.

A NPC like you, @MrMan, might be satisfied with endless drudgery, your Jewish hoax slave religion and barbaric female genital mutilation ( ) but for those of us who actually have souls and inner spirituality modern society's insane work culture is nothing but a source of depression and frustration and many of us want nothing more than to get out of the rat race.

[jamesbond]

In Anglo countries it's "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of a Paycheck."

[Seeker]

Most people don't like their jobs and only do them to survive. If you're fortunate you'll have a job you like which pays well. I'm currently fortunate enough to be in such a position. Most jobs throughout history were full of drudgery, hardship and low pay. What would you have been before the Industrial Revolution? Most likely a subsistence farmer on your family's small plot of land or an agricultural worker on someone else's. If you had the physical strength and fitness you might have been a soldier fighting some king's war. During the Industrial Revolution you would probably have been a factory worker doing gruelling, repetitive work for long hours 6 days a week in a hot and noisy factory for a pittance. It was only in the 20th century in capitalist countries where in some places as technology advanced and education, skill levels and capital investment increased that work became both easier and paid a decent living. We're currently going through another transition where as technology advances many jobs are becoming unnecessary and people are being thrown out of work and are having to retrain or take up temporary work. There are still good jobs out there but you have to be capable of it. A wisely regulated market economy works better than any other economic system in history.

[Pixel--Dude]

Most people don't like their jobs and only do them to survive. If you're fortunate you'll have a job you like which pays well. I'm currently fortunate enough to be in such a position. Most jobs throughout history were full of drudgery, hardship and low pay. What would you have been before the Industrial Revolution? Most likely a subsistence farmer on your family's small plot of land or an agricultural worker on someone else's. If you had the physical strength and fitness you might have been a soldier fighting some king's war. During the Industrial Revolution you would probably have been a factory worker doing gruelling, repetitive work for long hours 6 days a week in a hot and noisy factory for a pittance. It was only in the 20th century in capitalist countries where in some places as technology advanced and education, skill levels and capital investment increased that work became both easier and paid a decent living. We're currently going through another transition where as technology advances many jobs are becoming unnecessary and people are being thrown out of work and are having to retrain or take up temporary work. There are still good jobs out there but you have to be capable of it. A wisely regulated market economy works better than any other economic system in history.

Most jobs today don't pay a decent living. Most jobs pay the bare minimum they can get away with. Look at the restaurant industry in America in particular, waiting staff are barely paid anything and have to get the majority of their wages through tips. How is that acceptable? In my opinion if a company can't afford to pay a decent living wage to its workers then that company should not exist.

Do you really think everything is wisely regulated? When companies create artificial scarcity to control the market. Like the thing with De Beers monopolising the diamond industry and creating artificial scarcity to sell their diamonds off at ridiculously high prices. Then they did their marketing campaign where they were like "Nothing says I love you like a £10,000 engagement ring." This company is the one who peddled the bullshit that a dude should spend three months wages on an engagement ring. But this is just an example. Companies and corporations do this kind of thing all the time. Small independent businesses cannot grow under the current system because their competition is a multibillion dollar company.

Refer back to my previous point about pharmaceutical companies as well. Not actually in the market to cure disease, but to make life time customers out of people with depression and make a killing on alleviating symptoms of disease rather than curing the disease. In a capitalist society these pharmaceutical companies have zero incentive to cure disease as money will always trump human life.

Capitalism is unsustainable. Everything is owned by a very small group of people who own various companies owned by other companies etc. These corporate arseholes are responsible for most of the global environmental damage and these plutocrats give the government officials their marching orders at Davos, having them pass legislation or take the country in a particular direction which suits their corporate agenda. So not only is all this unsustainable for the environment, it also undermines democracy and freedom.

Then I'm told I should be grateful to live in a "free" country where I have the freedom to choose which corporate masters I wish to serve and I'm supposed to be happy living as a wage slave to fiat currency, at the expense of my mental and physical health, my relationships with people I care about and my own free time which could be used to follow my own passions and give my own purpose to my life. People who defend this system are either mentally ill or just absolute degenerates.