Two Things Indonesians Say

[MrMan]

These are the sort of things my wife says or has said, paraphrased.

"Food doesn't have to be refrigerated. Americans have to refrigerate everything all the time. This food will stay good overnight. We used to leave food out like this overnight."

"That rice is still good. We used to leave rice out overnight and eat it in the morning when I was little."

AND

When I mentioned how Indonesians think nothing of saying they missed work because of diarrhea...

"What's wrong with saying you have diarrhea if you have diarrhea?"

I pointed out getting diarrhea was a common thing in Indonesia because they leave food out. In the past, most families did not known refrigerators. I just read that 88% of Indonesian households surveyed said they owned one. That's a change I've noticed in my life-time, thinking of in-laws houses.

[yick]

The one thing now - same in Peru - is that even the poorest households have a fridge freezer, flat screen TV, a microwave and other mod cons as they called them in our countries back in the day, the Chinese make so many of these appliances and do it cheaply that even people of very modest means in Indonesia and Peru can buy themselves a fridge to store their perishables in which was something unthinkable 20 years ago when it was only for the rich.

That is the one thing where China has improved the standard of living for people in the developing world.

[MrMan]

The one thing now - same in Peru - is that even the poorest households have a fridge freezer, flat screen TV, a microwave and other mod cons as they called them in our countries back in the day, the Chinese make so many of these appliances and do it cheaply that even people of very modest means in Indonesia and Peru can buy themselves a fridge to store their perishables in which was something unthinkable 20 years ago when it was only for the rich.

That is the one thing where China has improved the standard of living for people in the developing world.

This is also a benefit of free trade, and capitalism, basically. China is officially communist, but embracing de facto capitalism is what enabled them to do a lot of this. Those who oppose capitalism should realize they are opposing a system that enabled people in developing countries to have refrigerators. We could argue that the environment might be the loser in this deal.

Companies have supply chains where manufacture of components of complicated products are spread around the world in the most optimal location they can find.

If the US stops defending the sea lanes from pirates and other countries do not take over, or if there is a serious war, that could cause some problems with this system. Baby boomers and the equivalent in countries with a smaller working generation (US, Japan, China, Russia, parts of Europe) might slow the system down a bit.

[publicduende]

The one thing now - same in Peru - is that even the poorest households have a fridge freezer, flat screen TV, a microwave and other mod cons as they called them in our countries back in the day, the Chinese make so many of these appliances and do it cheaply that even people of very modest means in Indonesia and Peru can buy themselves a fridge to store their perishables in which was something unthinkable 20 years ago when it was only for the rich.

That is the one thing where China has improved the standard of living for people in the developing world.

That's true, actually. And, with electronics, since manufacturing in Taiwan and China is not nearly as cheap as it used to be, now Vietnam is the new China.

I read some threads on Reddit, complaining that the Philippines are not receiving as much foreign investments on manufacturing facilities for hi-tech products like smart TV and smartphones, as Vietnam and Indonesia are. Well, good for them, I would say. Those investments are purposely targeting countries with average salaries even lower than the Philippines. The Philippines is definitely en-route to becoming a middle-income nation (like Thailand) within this or next decade. Thailand is currently stagnating.

[publicduende]

This is also a benefit of free trade, and capitalism, basically. China is officially communist, but embracing de facto capitalism is what enabled them to do a lot of this. Those who oppose capitalism should realize they are opposing a system that enabled people in developing countries to have refrigerators. We could argue that the environment might be the loser in this deal.

Companies have supply chains where manufacture of components of complicated products are spread around the world in the most optimal location they can find.

If the US stops defending the sea lanes from pirates and other countries do not take over, or if there is a serious war, that could cause some problems with this system. Baby boomers and the equivalent in countries with a smaller working generation (US, Japan, China, Russia, parts of Europe) might slow the system down a bit.

Let's not forget that, with China, it's never been about the cheap labour in the sweat shops and factories downtown. China has been an insane factory of quality minds, whether home brewed (their prestigious technical universities) or receiving their academic experience abroad and then returning.

US and Europe will never be able to compete with the number of academic and applied researchers, most in cutting edge specialties like nanoscale and quantum computing, semiconductors, nuclear physics and robotics, China produces.

[kangarunner]

I read some threads on Reddit, complaining that the Philippines are not receiving as much foreign investments on manufacturing facilities for hi-tech products like smart TV and smartphones, as Vietnam and Indonesia are. Well, good for them, I would say. Those investments are purposely targeting countries with average salaries even lower than the Philippines. The Philippines is definitely en-route to becoming a middle-income nation (like Thailand) within this or next decade. Thailand is currently stagnating.

Vietnam has one of the most socially cohesive societies in the world. They work together as one. One girl explained to me the meaning of the flag. She said, your flag has 50 stars. Our flag has one star because we're one people. I'm in a whatsapp group and someone said that Vietnamese were awarded a landscaping project and they got it done in 3 days whereas it would have taken an American company weeks to complete.

It goes without saying that Asian people are tighter with each other both as friends and in the workplace. I haven't observed their office environments but I've been told that they work very hard for not as much money as Westerners. Vietnam software companies also have contracts with Japan and other Asian countries.

Many things are becoming so efficient nowadays that I can only imagine how advances in AI will make things even more efficient. I started in web development but I'm seeing the writing on the wall with my older age and less energy being replaced by younger, more hungry workers. At this point, I'm looking for an out whether that's becoming an English teacher or scraping out ad revenue money.

[MrMan]

The one thing now - same in Peru - is that even the poorest households have a fridge freezer, flat screen TV, a microwave and other mod cons as they called them in our countries back in the day, the Chinese make so many of these appliances and do it cheaply that even people of very modest means in Indonesia and Peru can buy themselves a fridge to store their perishables in which was something unthinkable 20 years ago when it was only for the rich.

That is the one thing where China has improved the standard of living for people in the developing world.

That's true, actually. And, with electronics, since manufacturing in Taiwan and China is not nearly as cheap as it used to be, now Vietnam is the new China.

I read some threads on Reddit, complaining that the Philippines are not receiving as much foreign investments on manufacturing facilities for hi-tech products like smart TV and smartphones, as Vietnam and Indonesia are. Well, good for them, I would say. Those investments are purposely targeting countries with average salaries even lower than the Philippines. The Philippines is definitely en-route to becoming a middle-income nation (like Thailand) within this or next decade. Thailand is currently stagnating.

It is good to read that Indonesia is upgrading its skills more and more. About 12 years ago, I was trying to find computer manufacturers in Indonesia for someone to try to get their brands marketed in the US for a friend of mine, trying to put a deal together. I couldn't find manufacturers. (It's not may area.) I know Malaysia had a lot of those types of manufacturers.

As China becomes more developed, some of the higher tech jobs that require higher labor rates will likely move there, while cheaper tech will go to these other countries. At some point, Africa may get more into the game.

[publicduende]

Vietnam has one of the most socially cohesive societies in the world. They work together as one. One girl explained to me the meaning of the flag. She said, your flag has 50 stars. Our flag has one star because we're one people. I'm in a whatsapp group and someone said that Vietnamese were awarded a landscaping project and they got it done in 3 days whereas it would have taken an American company weeks to complete.

It goes without saying that Asian people are tighter with each other both as friends and in the workplace. I haven't observed their office environments but I've been told that they work very hard for not as much money as Westerners. Vietnam software companies also have contracts with Japan and other Asian countries.

Many things are becoming so efficient nowadays that I can only imagine how advances in AI will make things even more efficient. I started in web development but I'm seeing the writing on the wall with my older age and less energy being replaced by younger, more hungry workers. At this point, I'm looking for an out whether that's becoming an English teacher or scraping out ad revenue money.

My observation was more on the fact that Vietnam's average salaries are lower than those in Thailand, Malaysia, and the Philippines. Even if they had been on a par, I still guess Intel, Samsung etc. would have preferred Vietname over PH.

Why? For the reason you said before: for how corrupt their Communist power apparatus might be, Vietnamese society is still a hard-working, collectivist one at heart. Communities whose mode of survival was rice farming, a colture that requires a lot of water, a lot of intense labour and continuous care, are usually more cohesive and harder-working. Japan is one, Vietnam is another one. Even the areas in the Philippines where rice farming is prevalent, are notorious for procuding relatively smarter, harder-working and prouder people.

I think most Filipinos have their "wait for that large mango to fall off the tree" mentality to blame...

[publicduende]

It is good to read that Indonesia is upgrading its skills more and more. About 12 years ago, I was trying to find computer manufacturers in Indonesia for someone to try to get their brands marketed in the US for a friend of mine, trying to put a deal together. I couldn't find manufacturers. (It's not may area.) I know Malaysia had a lot of those types of manufacturers.

As China becomes more developed, some of the higher tech jobs that require higher labor rates will likely move there, while cheaper tech will go to these other countries. At some point, Africa may get more into the game.

I have been hiring Indonesian software developers for the past 3-4 years and I have to say the level is pretty good, essentially on a par with that of Philippine or Vietnamese developers, especially on the junior-to-mid-level range. Compared to the Philippines, there is generally fewer people whose spoken English is at least at professional communication level. Yet, in terms of sheer technical skills, we are at the same levels. As a bonus, an Indonesian developer from around Jakarta will be about 25-30% cheaper than their counterpart from Metro Manila.

I think Indonesia as a whole is not yet a tech-driven industry. They are still primarily a raw resource exporter. The IT sector is fast changing, though, because of demand from Asian multinationals (including banks).

[MrMan]

@publicduende

Did the ones you hired graduate from a university in Bandung? How did you find them? What do you pay them?

[publicduende]

Did the ones you hired graduate from a university in Bandung? How did you find them? What do you pay them?

I don't remember all of their universities. Two of them have studied at Bina Nusantara, which I understand is one of the best in the country.

Curiously enough, my Lead Developer, who is leaps and bounds better than anyone else, didn't even start a degree.

Nowadays Computer Science courses don't instill the most basic of skills in their students: the desire to learn more, dig deeper. Most of what developers around the world learn now is highly tactical, on demand, and a-la carte. Not good.

[MrMan]

Did the ones you hired graduate from a university in Bandung? How did you find them? What do you pay them?

I don't remember all of their universities. Two of them have studied at Bina Nusantara, which I understand is one of the best in the country.

Curiously enough, my Lead Developer, who is leaps and bounds better than anyone else, didn't even start a degree.

Nowadays Computer Science courses don't instill the most basic of skills in their students: the desire to learn more, dig deeper. Most of what developers around the world learn now is highly tactical, on demand, and a-la carte. Not good.

BINUS is supposed to be one of the better private universities. Universitas Indonesia and Gadja Madha are supposed to be a couple of the better state schools. There is also one for agriculture down in Bogor. It is not my area, but I was told that ITB, Universitas Teknologi Bandung was where a lot of the good computer programming type people were trained.

If one wanted to start a big tech company, an Uber or Amazon, do you think Indonesian developers could handle it? I don't know if Gojek hires any foreign talent. I haven't heard of them doing so.