Men See Women As "The Enemy"

[Taco]

Most guys are not too interested in "high risk investments".

Men See Women As "The Enemy"
http://henrymakow.com/2014/06/Men-See-Women-as.html

[publicduende]

From the article (right at the beginning)

I agree with Mike in the UK. Porn does for me what real women never have. I was married to a hot Filipina for 11 years too; so I know what a good sex life is like. And I was a born-again Christian for 22 years too; so I know where all the anti-porn folks are coming from. In fact, the only reason I sought out a wife was in obedience to 1 Corinthians 7:9 "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." That was the worst decision of my life! The best decisions of my life were 1) getting a vasectomy and 2) divorcing my stress/drama/debt-generator wife. As good as the sex was, it was not worth the price I paid.

I have discovered that MGTOW (men going their own way) is the path to peace and happiness. I live in Florida in a nice aircon condo. I take a 30-45 minute walk every day in the natural beauty that is my neighbourhood. I read a lot of articles online each day and interact with Facebook friends. I run my online machinery business. I take 1 or 2 vacations to Thailand or the Philippines each year. That is the only time I have sex. But it's all good. Because porn is always there for me when I get horny. It never says NO. It never shames me. It never threatens me. It demands nothing in return. It's free! It offers a different experience each and every time - at MY convenience. When I am done, it is done. I am in total control. What is not to like?

Ouch, if this is the typical MGTOW lifestyle, I have to say these must be the saddest poor sods I could ever meet in my life! The guy above was already lucky enough to have chosen a Filipina (Fil-Am?) as his wife, and yet he couldn't stand the weight of having a family. More than a "stress/drama/debt generator", I guess he saw her wife as a sex generator, since he dumped her as soon the burden of responsibility was too much for his sorry arse.

And wait...he's been a Christian, too! That, before deciding that his Bible learning could conveniently stop at getting the young flesh and not extend to other areas of life including, you know, having actual loving feelings for someone who isn't himself. Another fat box of ammo for someone like me who has always though that Christians, especially the modern denominations en vogue in the US and some parts of Latin America, are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites, "moral relativist" and crypto-fascists.

I had read something about the MGTOW movement before, but this is the ultimate eye opener on what kind of losers they really are. A complete waste of biological footprint, and the best way to live a life without having ever existed.

[bladed11]

Most guys are not too interested in "high risk investments".

Men See Women As "The Enemy"
http://henrymakow.com/2014/06/Men-See-Women-as.html

Well I don't see them as the enemy. I do see them as demonically possessed poor souls headed to the pit of hell to burn forever and are in desperate need of repentance and salvation. Because they will be tormented in hell in horrible ways you can't imagine.

However, of course there are decent women not perfect but decent on their way to heaven.. Narrow is that path

[ntm1972]

This. I agree 100% with what you say here.

MGTOW is a sick, twisted and impotent movement made by losers, for losers and embraced by losers. You can "go your own way" all you want, but men and women have sexual desires, and these come from biological and evolutionary desires. If large numbers of men choose to opt out of living life, I say let them. But their genes, their dreams and ideals will die with them. Upon their demise they will realize they didn't win any games... they simply refused to ever play. All they did was cheat themselves out of a good life they could otherwise have had, had they met the right woman and lived in the right place. But they never did, because their defeatist attitude got the better of them.

MGTOW is defeatism, pure and simple. It's cowardly, it is unmanly and those involved in it are selling themselves short. Whoever is a part of this mythical "manosphere" and embraces the "Going Your Own Way" theory will end up being sorely dissapointed sooner or later. No matter how delusional he may be.

You really like to pour on the shaming language, don't you? I understand, it's a habit of young men who haven't lived enough life yet to spout bold declarative statements with only limited information on hand. Been there, done that. A guy's got to live out his life with open eyes and an alert mind in order to gain better, more nuanced views on the issues. In twenty years, I daresay you're going to have radically different views on a lot of things than the opinions you've got now.

"Sick, twisted, and impotent"? Settle down. There's nothing sick, twisted, OR impotent about exercising due caution in interacting with women, in the pursuit of whatever one's goals might be. It is true that there are a lot of very bitter men in the MGTOW movement - but what's also true is that practically none of these men started out so. A lot of them were caring and oft idealistic men who got steamrolled by a legal system that doesn't give a damn about them.

As for going overseas, quite a few MGTOW types have done this as well, and enjoy relationships with women on terms that are mutually suitable, as opposed to the one-sided framework in place in the West. During the eighteen months I was abroad, you could count me as a member of said group of men. I had the pleasure of having several intimate relationships during that period; none of them were long-term, as agreed upon mutually. Your asseveration in an earlier response that the only way that MGTOW could be useful is if it encouraged men to pursue long-term relationships with foreign women is blinkered, to say the least. Just because YOU and some others have apparently found success along said route does NOT mean that said path is the only viable one for men who have become disenchanted with the West.

Based on what I've read from you thus far, I feel comfortable in asking you the following: Tell me, Marcos, why OUGHT a man "be fruitful and multiply", to use the biblical expression? Why OUGHT he seek a long-term partnership with some woman? Why can he not find himself happy in the role of lifetime bachelor, doing good deeds for the benefits of both others and himself in ways that are consonant with his moral outlook? Rather atavistic thinking on your part, wouldn't you say?

I've enjoyed relationships of all sorts with a great many women in my time, and have always been honest with my partners in what I wanted out of these relationships. Many other men who see themselves as "going their own ways" do the same. Are they defeatist? Cowardly? Unmanly? Hardly! Are they really selling themselves short, or are they simply living their own versions of the authentic life, in environments that are often hostile to their interests?

Are there quite a few MGTOW sorts who have jumped headfirst down a psychological rat hole? Absolutely. But don't use that as an excuse to excoriate the entire movement.

In the future, you should choose your words more carefully. Things aren't as clear-cut, as binary, as you and like-minded fellows make it out to be.

[publicduende]

You really like to pour on the shaming language, don't you? I understand, it's a habit of young men who haven't lived enough life yet to spout bold declarative statements with only limited information on hand. Been there, done that. A guy's got to live out his life with open eyes and an alert mind in order to gain better, more nuanced views on the issues. In twenty years, I daresay you're going to have radically different views on a lot of things than the opinions you've got now.

"Sick, twisted, and impotent"? Settle down. There's nothing sick, twisted, OR impotent about exercising due caution in interacting with women, in the pursuit of whatever one's goals might be. It is true that there are a lot of very bitter men in the MGTOW movement - but what's also true is that practically none of these men started out so. A lot of them were caring and oft idealistic men who got steamrolled by a legal system that doesn't give a damn about them.

As for going overseas, quite a few MGTOW types have done this as well, and enjoy relationships with women on terms that are mutually suitable, as opposed to the one-sided framework in place in the West. During the eighteen months I was abroad, you could count me as a member of said group of men. I had the pleasure of having several intimate relationships during that period; none of them were long-term, as agreed upon mutually. Your asseveration in an earlier response that the only way that MGTOW could be useful is if it encouraged men to pursue long-term relationships with foreign women is blinkered, to say the least. Just because YOU and some others have apparently found success along said route does NOT mean that said path is the only viable one for men who have become disenchanted with the West.

Based on what I've read from you thus far, I feel comfortable in asking you the following: Tell me, Marcos, why OUGHT a man "be fruitful and multiply", to use the biblical expression? Why OUGHT he seek a long-term partnership with some woman? Why can he not find himself happy in the role of lifetime bachelor, doing good deeds for the benefits of both others and himself in ways that are consonant with his moral outlook? Rather atavistic thinking on your part, wouldn't you say?

I've enjoyed relationships of all sorts with a great many women in my time, and have always been honest with my partners in what I wanted out of these relationships. Many other men who see themselves as "going their own ways" do the same. Are they defeatist? Cowardly? Unmanly? Hardly! Are they really selling themselves short, or are they simply living their own versions of the authentic life, in environments that are often hostile to their interests?

Are there quite a few MGTOW sorts who have jumped headfirst down a psychological rat hole? Absolutely. But don't use that as an excuse to excoriate the entire movement.

In the future, you should choose your words more carefully. Things aren't as clear-cut, as binary, as you and like-minded fellows make it out to be.

You're not talking about the same thing, dude. The way MGTOW like to define themselves is as men who have lost all trust in women and society in general, which they accuse of supporting a feminist agenda.

If, as you say, you lived abroad and had short-term relationships with multiple girls, that doesn't make you a MGTOW. Marcos has a different perspective on life, and not necessarily because he's "young and stupid". He has probably has a fair bit of travelling and found rural Philippines to be his environment of choice.

When I stayed in Samal, which is still a pretty rough and rural part of Mindanao, I too was pleasantly surprised about the simple life people have there, and the optimism and warmth they emanate despite most of them endure a level of poverty unimaginable over here in the West. If for a few brief moments, I was embraced by that community and felt nothing but respect and desire to "give back". Marcos' life dreams might not be everyone's cup of tea, but they're his and he believes in them.

It's many other members, probably not you but several others, who should follow his example, take those arses off the chair and move abroad, if they really believe that's what will make them happy.

[ntm1972]

You're not talking about the same thing, dude. The way MGTOW like to define themselves is as men who have lost all trust in women and society in general, which they accuse of supporting a feminist agenda.

You miss my point. Of course MGTOW types define themselves in such a way - and who can blame them, given all that they see around them? What I'm saying is that not all MGTOW's are seething reclusive misogynists who pride themselves on being armchair warriors. Far from it! I've posted on several MGTOW boards on many occasions, and I can tell you that both the life tales and the responses to hardships are as varied as the men who post on them. As with any movement, people tend to hear only the ones who shout the loudest, which in this case are the guys who act as if nothing would make them happier than seeing humans wiped off the face of the earth.

If, as you say, you lived abroad and had short-term relationships with multiple girls, that doesn't make you a MGTOW. Marcos has a different perspective on life, and not necessarily because he's "young and stupid". He has probably has a fair bit of travelling and found rural Philippines to be his environment of choice.

No, I was a man going his own way BEFORE I went abroad to enrich my life, part of which involved relationships with various women. Don't put the cart before the horse.

I never said Marcos was stupid. Ignorance doesn't equal stupidity. The older you grow, the more you realize that the world is much bigger than just the corner you can see, and that things aren't as cut and dried as they seem to be when you're younger and less experienced. I'm simply encouraging Marcos and others to enhance their knowledge bases.

When I stayed in Samal, which is still a pretty rough and rural part of Mindanao, I too was pleasantly surprised about the simple life people have there, and the optimism and warmth they emanate despite most of them endure a level of poverty unimaginable over here in the West. If for a few brief moments, I was embraced by that community and felt nothing but respect and desire to "give back". Marcos' life dreams might not be everyone's cup of tea, but they're his and he believes in them.

It's many other members, probably not you but several others, who should follow his example, take those arses off the chair and move abroad, if they really believe that's what will make them happy.

When you have nothing, it's true that you find yourself open to embracing the company of others, as well as demonstrating selflessness, to a degree that's unfathomable in the wealthy and highly individualistic West. I know this from first-hand experience as well. I don't knock Marcos at all for having the dreams he has, and I say more power to him as he pursues his goals. My intention, in response to the tone I perceived from his writings, was to make clear that a man who identifies as MGTOW does not necessarily possess either an inferior philosophy or lesser objectives.

We do agree that talk is cheap. S**t or get off the pot. Whatever you think will make you happy, go do it, even if it means selling everything you have and going halfway round the world to live in a hut.

[publicduende]

You miss my point. Of course MGTOW types define themselves in such a way - and who can blame them, given all that they see around them? What I'm saying is that not all MGTOW's are seething reclusive misogynists who pride themselves on being armchair warriors. Far from it! I've posted on several MGTOW boards on many occasions, and I can tell you that both the life tales and the responses to hardships are as varied as the men who post on them. As with any movement, people tend to hear only the ones who shout the loudest, which in this case are the guys who act as if nothing would make them happier than seeing humans wiped off the face of the earth.

I hear you. You say you you might have, in the past, espoused some of the principles of the MGTOW movement.

Whatever you want to call what and who you are, you're clearly not in the paranoid extremist camp Marcos and I was pointing fingers to. It could just be me being a product of my environment, but I have little respect for people who bury their heads under the sand, avoiding interacting with society and striving to give their contributions, no matter how sophisticated their theories are and how "high" they feel their mission is.

If, as you say, you lived abroad and had short-term relationships with multiple girls, that doesn't make you a MGTOW. Marcos has a different perspective on life, and not necessarily because he's "young and stupid". He has probably has a fair bit of travelling and found rural Philippines to be his environment of choice.

No, I was a man going his own way BEFORE I went abroad to enrich my life, part of which involved relationships with various women. Don't put the cart before the horse.

Not putting the cart before the horse. I don't know your life events as you don't know mine. Good for you, you smartened up since your MGTOW days. It sure mustn't have been the most productive time in your life, but at least you used to recoil back into reality with some new ideas and energies. Some people seem to have never gotten past the "compressed spring" stage

I never said Marcos was stupid. Ignorance doesn't equal stupidity. The older you grow, the more you realize that the world is much bigger than just the corner you can see, and that things aren't as cut and dried as they seem to be when you're younger and less experienced. I'm simply encouraging Marcos and others to enhance their knowledge bases.

It seems to me that Marcos is, at 23, much more balanced and optimistic than 90% of the so-called navigated experts. Nobody is denying that some, indeed many of you, have criss-crossed Asia, or Latin America, or Europe. Yet, some sound like they didn't learn an awful lot from their journeys, if their views are still so extreme, immature and exclusive.

When you have nothing, it's true that you find yourself open to embracing the company of others, as well as demonstrating selflessness, to a degree that's unfathomable in the wealthy and highly individualistic West. I know this from first-hand experience as well. I don't knock Marcos at all for having the dreams he has, and I say more power to him as he pursues his goals. My intention, in response to the tone I perceived from his writings, was to make clear that a man who identifies as MGTOW does not necessarily possess either an inferior philosophy or lesser objectives.

Then I challenge you to point me to some of the best bits of the MGTOW ideology and proponents.

We do agree that talk is cheap. S**t or get off the pot. Whatever you think will make you happy, go do it, even if it means selling everything you have and going halfway round the world to live in a hut.

Well said.

[ntm1972]

Then I challenge you to point me to some of the best bits of the MGTOW ideology and proponents.

As far as pointing someone to MGTOW-oriented literature, I recommend Thomas Ellis' "Rantings of a Single Male" and Esther Vilar's "The Manipulated Man". Those books offer wisdom and highlight a man's need to exercise prudence in his dealings with women, and they do so in ways that are not fueled by bitterness and hatred.

A couple of months ago, I talked to a young man whose girlfriend had cheated on him while he was away for a week to deal with a medical issue. He was devastated and looking for guidance, and I tried to help him out as best as I could by pointing him to books, including the two above, that would help him get a better understanding of the female psyche.

It's vital that men realize that women are greatly different from men in many ways, but they are so in a complementary fashion, not an inferior one. To whatever extent that is demonstrated by writers such as Ellis and Vilar, as well as authors like Warren Farrell, that's a good thing.

As far as general improvement of one's life is concerned - increasing wealth, developing skills, indulging in various hobbies - I've seen good posts regarding these matters on MGTOW boards. So as long as your focus is self-improvement, you can get something out of a visit to a MGTOW web site.

[publicduende]

Then I challenge you to point me to some of the best bits of the MGTOW ideology and proponents.

As far as pointing someone to MGTOW-oriented literature, I recommend Thomas Ellis' "Rantings of a Single Male" and Esther Vilar's "The Manipulated Man". Those books offer wisdom and highlight a man's need to exercise prudence in his dealings with women, and they do so in ways that are not fueled by bitterness and hatred.

A couple of months ago, I talked to a young man whose girlfriend had cheated on him while he was away for a week to deal with a medical issue. He was devastated and looking for guidance, and I tried to help him out as best as I could by pointing him to books, including the two above, that would help him get a better understanding of the female psyche.

It's vital that men realize that women are greatly different from men in many ways, but they are so in a complementary fashion, not an inferior one. To whatever extent that is demonstrated by writers such as Ellis and Vilar, as well as authors like Warren Farrell, that's a good thing.

As far as general improvement of one's life is concerned - increasing wealth, developing skills, indulging in various hobbies - I've seen good posts regarding these matters on MGTOW boards. So as long as your focus is self-improvement, you can get something out of a visit to a MGTOW web site.

Thanks, I'll have a look. By the sound of it, they seem pretty standard material on self-improvement. The stuff I have read by Makow or on his website is pretty extreme, compared to the above. It's like comparing an armchair moderate right-winger with a militant neo Nazi. The only thing I feel like adding is that if a man has to read a book to learn how to "exercise prudence in his dealings with women", ie. not let his sexual urges and desperation blind his sense of judgment, then he's quite the laggard in his emotional development.

[ntm1972]

The only thing I feel like adding is that if a man has to read a book to learn how to "exercise prudence in his dealings with women", ie. not let his sexual urges and desperation blind his sense of judgment, then he's quite the laggard in his emotional development.

Keep in mind that his stunted development may be directly traced to a skewed upbringing. That was the case for me: I was reared in a Christian fundamentalist environment, and even went to a fundamentalist college for my undergraduate work. When I graduated from there, I was 21 years old and didn't have a clue in the world how to either relate to women, or how to address my sexual desires. Just to give you an idea of how warped the first twenty-one years of my life were, I was nearly expelled from the fundy college for masturbating in what I thought was a private area.

It's taken me another 21 years to achieve some sense of normalcy in both behavior and outlook, but I couldn't do it until I'd focused on satisfying my hormonal urges - and let me tell you, I went crazy in my twenties and early thirties. I had to, for sanity's sake!

That's what worries me about Tsar and other guys like him on this board. He needs to get off this virginal maiden kick of his and just nut inside some chick. Reminds me of Robin Williams' line from Good Morning, Vietnam: "You're in more dire need of a b***job than any white man in history."

[ntm1972]

Marcos,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You're right, I'm different from most MGTOW types, which is probably why I spend very little time on such sites these days. I found MGTOW posts to be like nutmeg - welcome in small doses, but fatal to your psyche in larger amounts. There are a lot of very depressed men on those sites making a brave show of things.

You've got a good head on your shoulders. Part of me wishes that I would have had the wherewithal to stay in Germany in 1993, where I spent two months after graduating from the aforementioned fundamentalist college, so that I could find my way in the world free of toxic influences, religious or otherwise. Had I done so, I might well have found myself happily ensconced in a remote area of Latin America or Southeast Asia, married with kids and doing things that make me happy. That scenario might still play out in some form, mind you, but in the meanwhile I'm playing the hand that life has dealt, not afraid to go all in as opportunities arise.

Best of luck to you.

[RickyRetardo]

That's what worries me about Tsar and other guys like him on this board. He needs to get off this virginal maiden kick of his and just nut inside some chick."

I hope he doesn't get her pregnant and walk out on the kid, because growing up without a father isn't good.

[traveller]

Most guys are not too interested in "high risk investments".

Men See Women As "The Enemy"
http://henrymakow.com/2014/06/Men-See-Women-as.html

Touching article.

Unlike the guys in the article, however, for me, porn is nothing but the same stuff repeated that gets absolutely boring and is totally un-entertaining.