Parental Approval of Marriage in Asia

[MrMan]

I've mentioned watching 'Take Me Out - Indonesia'. I find the show to be culturally interesting, since the women's responses are so different from what you'd hear in the west.

There are thirty women with lighted panels. A man is brought out, and at certain stages of the show, they can hit the buzzer if they aren't interested in the guy. The man introduces himself-- lights can go out. He demonstrates a talent, the lights can go out. It's a lot more polite than the western version of the show. Flirtation is non-sexual poems and puns about the guy having a place in the girl's heart, and sounds a bit scripted. In the Indonesian version of the show, the hosts give the girls a hard time and grill them for why they turned their lights out. The girls make up excuses about the guys clothing, hair or height so they don't have to say they find him unattractive. Toward the end, the man turns out the lights of the girls he doesn't want to date except for two, and then asks a question to the last two girls. Then he turns out the last light.

One man asked the last two girls if they were dating guy they wanted to marry but their parents didn't agree, would they marry or do what their parents wanted. One answered that she'd go with her parents because without her parents, she would be nothing (maybe meaning she wouldn't exist.) The other said it's not just about marriage, and that after you marry, you still have to have a relationship with family, so she'd go with her parents on that and try to continue to persuade the parents.

I know a Chinese guy who dated a pretty Batak girl and it took him several years to convince his father. They had similar religious beliefs, and she seemed like a really nice girl. But once kids marry non-Chinese, the offspring aren't considered a big deal. Chinese are kind of exclusive in Indonesia, that way, and often marry other Chinese. The Batak give a son-in-law a family name and marry him into the family as an adopted cousin of the mother's family or father's brother-in-laws family or something like that. Sons of Javanese men are Javanese. A lot of groups don't worry about ethnic mixing because of these traditions.

Anyway, I appreciate the family values of these girls. I have a somewhat patriarchal mindset. I believe the father of a girl should be involved in choosing or approving her husband and that she's under the father's authority until he gives her away to her husband, and then she's under her husbands authority. In Indonesia, it's more about getting parent's permission, not just the father, though the man is the head of the home.

For you guys wanting to date Asian girls, this is something to keep in mind. Marriage isn't just about you two hitting it off and falling in love and deciding to marry. I think Filippino culture is somewhat similar to Indonesian. Parental approval (of both parents) is important. I went to a Filippino wedding, and both father and mother ushered the bride down the aisle. If I remember right, the groom's parents did the same thing for him, first. Parental approval on both sides is needed if they are alive in Indonesia, if not legally, then culturally. 'Kawin lari' (run marrying) is a bad thing. It's disrespectful to parents.

IMO, if you meet a girl and you think you might marry her, go ahead and meet her parents. My wife's dad lived far away on another island. Right after I met my wife, when we were still just friends, she invited me to her uncle's funeral. I'd just met her, and that was too much for me. She believed God wanted us to get married. She didn't say that. I suspected the same thing. But it was too much. So I didn't go to the funeral and meet her dad. But then I changed my mind and went to something like a wake, but her dad had gone back. I wish I'd met her dad right away.

If you think about it, if you date a while and break up, you don't really lose out by meeting her parents. She might be a bit shy around relatives if she breaks up and they ask where the foreigner is, but they are her family and she can deal with it.

She eventually called her dad after I proposed. He'd heard she'd been dating a white dude and was afraid she'd marry some guy who'd divorce her. He'd worked in the oil industry and knew about 'contract wives' which happens in that sub-culture in Indonesia, where the guys marry a girl for a while and divorce at the end of their contract, leaving her with a house, an agreed upon sum, and whatever kids are produced. In exchange, the guys get a few years of sex, cooking, cleaning, and companionship. She had to persuade him that I wasn't like that on the phone. He was cool with it when I met him and was ready to jump into wedding plans.

But I had met her relatives in her town, uncles and aunts on both sides of the family and their kids. I don't know what kind of checking up on me her parents did between the phone call and my trip up there to ask to marry her. I didn't really even ask for her hand. They just jumped into talking about wedding plans in a language I didn't know, not even in Indonesian so much.

[Lorenzo]

I always met the candidates parents and it was enlightening. i checked to make sure we had a green light if desired. This was Indonesia, Thailand and Korea. They all seemed happy with me and it was important to know about the girl's background and upbringing first.

If the woman is over 30 the parents will be glad to marry her off unless the man is an obvious loser. If she is in her 20s the parents will be more involved and concerned. If she is 40+ it is totally unnecessary to ask the parents and not much more than a token jesture.

Interesting, when I met my Thai GF's parents the sister was quick to inform me the sin sot (dowlry) would be 300,000 baht (about $10K USD). I smiled and said "Sure, but she is priceless to me " Everyone smiled, I was in

[MrMan]

In Indonesia, if the parents are still alive, you would culturally need their approval at 40+ as well. But, you'd probably have to be an obvious loser or obviously dangerous like you said for them to object.

For older men, an American 30 year old woman might be somewhat selective. But in many parts of Asia, 30 or 30+ is over the hill. She missed her chance at marriage. If a 50-year-old 'rich' white guy wants to marry her, mom and dad would probably be happy to have her married off. Of course, how many pretty women are going to be single at 30 in a culture like that.

I did know a woman who was 40 and single. She worked a lot and just had never gotten close to being married. I actually thought she was rather pretty. I would have guessed she was 30 to look at her. I wouldn't be surprised if she was a virgin. She asked my wife how to find a husband (or how to find a white husband. They started with the husband question with her and worked their way to the white husband part.) I suggested the Internet. She was married about a year later to an American she met online.

[MrMan]

dup

[MrMan]

Lorenzo, is your wife as pretty as your picture of yourself in your avatar?

[Ghost]

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[MrMan]

In Indonesia, if she's from an in-tact family and she is a 'good girl', she probably isn't going to marry anyone without her parents' approval. That's not honoring her parents. It's not realistic to expect her to not respect her father as head of his household by marrying you, and then expect that she will honor you as head of the household. If she's a wild child willing to run away and marry without parental approval, what's to say that she won't be a wild child who leaves her husband on a whim?

I think a lot of American women marry based mainly on emotion. They've seen the cartoons and movies where if the feeling is right, it lasts forever..happily ever after. But Indonesian women are used to people only marrying if parents approve. Older folks tell them to marry if you 'cocok'-- match together well. They want to fall in love and 'cinta'-- romantic love, has a place in their culture and in their thoughts on the subject, but it's not the only factor. I think that's a good thing.

[Wolfeye]

Why do they care so much about the parents with that? They're going to be dead before the kids grow up, most likely. They might be important to her, but shouldn't she be important to them? That they'd be there for her if the guy she thinks well of & that they don't think well of doesn't work out? I'd think that's why you'd be concerned about the parents- that these parents are going to potentially be involved with this guy. If he's nuts, he ight go off on them as well as her. It strikes me that either I'm missing something or they are.

[MrMan]

Wolfeye, ask someone from one of these cultures, and you may hear some different ideas from what you shared. Your mother gives birth to you. Without your parents, you wouldn't exist. They raised you, so without them you might not be alive. You are supposed to honor your father and mother. You might hear things like that from an Indonesian discussing honoring parents. As a parent, I appreciate that philosophy.

I didn't really understand until I had my first child. Man, that boy could poop. My wife did a lot of the diapers, but I did some. He'd breastfeed a lot, then, when you'd change a poopy diaper, sometimes, he'd fire out a brown volcano of goo in the middle of a diaper change. During those first weeks, you are tired from the hospital ordeal, and I think that just might exhaust the wife more than the husband. We just have to maybe stay up all night while she's in labor. But she has to give birth and nurse. And every couple of hours, that baby wakes you up when you get home, wanting either a diaper change or some milk or just to be held. They need to feed every two hours.

Somewhere into this, it occurred to me how much my parents had done for me as a little baby, and that's just as a baby. They also raise you for 18 years or so, then maybe they help you through college. Then, when they die, they leave you their things. They do a lot for you.

Asians tend to be collectivists. I took a cross cultural class that had Venn diagrams explaining individualist versus collectivist views of the self. The collectivist thinks of himself as the son of their parents, a part of a certain family, a part of a people group. The individualist thinks of himself as an individual, and those other things aren't so much a part of his identity, his view of himself. The collectivist college student might say I studied accounting because my parents wanted me to be an accountant.

One the game show I mentioned, you hear women in their 20's say they want to make their parents proud. On the American or UK version of the show, if a guy lives with his mom, the girls hit the buzzers. On this show, the girls say stuff like if he loves his mom, he'll love his wife. There was a video of a gut getting his shoulders rubbed by his mom talking about spending time with her. A few buzzers went off. One girl said she turned off the buzzer because he was 'anak manja'-- like a spoiled child or a kind of soft or something like that. But most girls kept their lights on. Little things like that are interesting.

Part of this is a loyalty issue. That's a good thing about a woman from these cultures. They know to be loyal to family. If she's loyal to her parents, they approve of the marriage, and that loyalty transfers to you or expands to include you, then that's a good thing.

My wife was more independent from her parents than a lot of people because she was bounced around between uncles and aunts in her teen years in the big city. A lot of kids are like that. Her parents didn't keep up with her well. They visited her when they visited other relatives in the city. So, early in the marriage, sometimes it felt almost like me and her versus them if there was some kind of disagreement or if there was some sort of family issue. Her folks lived far away. I was also giving her, emotionally, some things she lacked in a relationship with her parents. As time went on, she realized it was important to strengthen her relationship with her parents.

The plus side of this is that I didn't have all that much intrusion of my in-laws into my life, just when they came to visit maybe once or twice a year for a short time. But they didn't really try to arrange our lives or anything. That sort of thing is something you also have to keep in mind if you marry a girl who is close to her parents and you live in country.

They may be giving you advice all the time. You may need to politely try to set some boundaries so it's not your wife and them versus you on parenting or family issues. If you bring your wife home or live in another city, then you deal with them when they come to visit. If you get along great with them, then you may have a good time. If not, then it may not be so good. If you take her home to the US, then they probably aren't going to try to interfere with your life too much.

My wife's people group are always giving advice, especially to younger people. When the family gathers, an older brother or sister may get on a grown brother or sister's case for how they treat their parents, or for not being polite enough. That's just a part of their culture. They don't do that to me, though, which is good. I haven't had the parental lecture directed toward me, and I think that's partly because I'm foreign and I was one of the richest people among their family, just having a foreign English teacher job. She's got some cousins who married into rich families, but not her parent's kids.

[Wolfeye]

Well, I like a woman that's individualist in the sense that she realizes that there exists disparity between entities (ex: there isn't the same instance of person, even with identical twins)- but can also see herself in that other sense (like if she has a kid, she sees her individual self as a mother- not just the woman that lives in the house where there's a screaming thing that also lives there).

[MrMan]

Wolfeye,

People from collectivist cultures aren't insane. They know that the screaming thing is a baby. It's a matter of where they get their identify from, the extent to which they see themselves as a part of a group, and whether they put their in-group's needs before their own needs... things like that. Individualists can be kind of selfish at times in comparison.

I watched that Indonesian dating show again, this time with one woman and a bunch of guys. The woman asked a question of the last two contestants a question. If they got married down the road, could her mom come and live with them. One man said if he loved her and they got married, not only her mom, but her brothers and sisters. The other man said it would be a burden to him, since mother-in-laws sometimes like to run the house. She chose the man who offered to let her mom live with them.

That show is so culturally interesting. It's a silly game show in the US, but Indonesians on the show take it seriously. They are looking for a marriage partner. That's something about dating an Indonesian woman. If you date a nice girl there, she'll be doing it with marriage in mind.

Someone looking for marriage in the US may date a lot of time wasters, people who just want to date and have a good time and play and not get married. That's not usually the case with Indonesians, at least not in their 20's.

[Wolfeye]

I was talking about the individualist style- saying that someone could be individualist to the point where they don't see themselves as someone attached to someone else. Like they are only them & there's no "son of"/"daughter of"/"brother of"/"sister of"/"mother of"/"father of." Whatever applies. That they're basically so self-centered that other people don't really register in their minds that way.