Hi Alexey,
Here is his next response.
His comments start with a dash "-".
Am I defending the Russian cuisine? No, not really, there is no need in that, it can stand for itself. I'm just fighting with ignorance.
- Calling bland and tasteless food as that is not ignorance. Russian food can stand for itself - that's the pride, not the food.
What is a professional cook? It's a person who "...experiment a lot, make newer dishes, make constant changes, fuse tastes." - yes, it's also a person who knows the principles of cooking, characteristics of products, the history and traditions. So Russian people and Russian (let's use the French word "chef") chefs did "...experiment a lot, make newer dishes, make constant changes, fuse tastes" and by that formed the Russian cuisine.
- and what is that russian cuisine??? Nothing much beyond the 5-7 number of dishes that I had earlier enumerated really. And there is really nothing much "russian" in them as they are there in other countries. So my question is what is so russian about it? These dishes are not the experimented dishes that came to be known as Russian cuisine!!
Trdaitional Russian culinary is simple indeed. Traditional Italian culinary is also simple, they don't have as much types of frying as there is in Chinese cuisine - so what? The word simple doesn't exclude a good taste, and a good taste is only reached by quality of products and skills of the chef. If one prefers a complicated cuisine - there are French and Chinese ones.
I could partially agree. Simple is a leaf from a tree. Now someone may really love that and write a thesis on how great and nutritious it is.
"How many vegetarian dishes and spices were available in Soviet Russia is anybody's guess."
Every country has its dark periods. How many delicatessen were there in Europe during the WWII?
- Alright. Given, Soviet period was dark. And what exactly was before that then? If we take out meat and caviar, what authentic "russian" dishes were mainstream russian dishes of the masses and how russian were they? I'd like to remove my "ignorance". Please enlighten.
Russian cuisine serves one important purpose - it helps to survive in the extreme climate of Russia.
- I didn't ask the purpose to justify what is there and why and how. Simply that why is it so russian if it is russian at all?! That is my question! Survival food doesn't have to be necessarily good. People have used things to survive in the jungle.
First, in winter, to resist frost, the organism needs extra calories. Second, in winter one wouldn't go into anabiosis but would have to be active. That means Russian food must be highly nutritive. One more important thing - in India people enjoy the sun all year long (yes, there are periods of rains and just bad weather) but in Russia for 6-7 months of the year less than 10% of the body recieves the sun light, that means the organism simply needs animal fats and proteins and elements to function well (vitamin D for example). In summer Russian food helps to store vitamins in the organism, to stand heat and to provide calories as Russians had to work hard in summer (to prepare for winter). Those are the important principles upon wich Russian cuisine was designed.
- Dear Alexey, I completely agree with what you just said above.
Eating meat gets you the fats and vitamin D etc. All that pretty much can be obtained from vegetarian food to. Much of that is not available in Russia, which is a different thing. BUT if you are eating meat, how is it "RUSSIAN CUISINE"??? Germans eat meat in cold climate too. So does rest of Europe!! What is so "russian" in killing a cow and eating it up?
Again, the answer is beating about the bush and not going to the point.
"I invited some of my russian guests in New Delhi to taste butter chicken with authentic Indian preparation and they were totally blown away. They said they never tasted chicken so so good!!"
No one's ever considered Indian food as bad.
There is a cuisine. If you ever come to India, I'd love you to accept my hospitality. Thanks.
"The mind that knows so much in detail about your culture and cuisine and about its own too is certainly not limited, because that takes life's experience, observation and knowledge."
The mind is limited when it is closed for new things, one can read hundreds of works of classic writers but call them crap.
- Again, I never called it "crap". That's like putting words in my mouth. Generally speaking, yes the mind can be considered limited if it's closed for newer things. Would you try the Indian chilli dish? Accustomed to mild taste, russians can't handle chillies. So yes its also a matter of taste and preference. But then the topic in discussion was 'russian cuisine'.
To be honest, I really wouldn't want to argue, for a simple reason that people in different places make things a certain way and prefer it a certain way. Eating is a matter of taste. But meat is made in similar way in Ukraine and Russia and in many other CIS countries. Not just that, it is made in similar way in many other countries too in europe. How is it "russian" then? Since one wants to take the credit of calling it 'russian', then it has to be unique to russia or it has to be the source and origin of that particular dish. It's not about copyright or patenting a dish.
Example: In India every state has its own food cuisine specialities, that you will not find in another country. For instance the dish: 'dhokla' is a dish special to the state Gujrat in India. You will not find this in all of asia, europe, america or elsewhere. Chhole Bhature is from Punjab. Dosa is from South India. You will not find anything similar to this anywhere else. This is unique to India. The Indian sweets are unique to India.
But you are telling me why russians need to eat meat in winter etc.
"Professional cooks have to serve a certain clientale. The dishes prepared do not have to be traditional."
True, if the audience wants something original - it gets something original, if one wants a traditional dish, he goes to a traditional restaurant. But the dishes, of course, can be either traditional or author’s. However, a trully professional chef must know and be able to cook traditional recipes.
- That's alright about professional chefs/ cooks. Again, enumerated dishes before form a part of day to day normal russian cuisine.
People eat 'grechka'. Most foreigners don't like it. There is no preparation method. boil it or fry it a bit afterwards and eat with something. Simple. You may like it well. But so do Ukrainians eat grechka. So do some other nationalities. Nothing so russian about it really.
Beef is beef. Pork is pork.
"A journalist's research capabilities and skills make him good for his mostly neutral opinion that are far from limited. I don't have to be a top notch culinary expert of a country to comment and notice simple things in life and cuisine. It's what is wide spread in the people. This can be clear and well observed by a willing and observable eye."
I haven't heard your neutral opinion yet, only likes and dislikes. To give an OBJECTIVE opinion, one has to be a professional.
- I gave my objective opinion well. I don't have to praise everything to sound it objective. Didn't I say, I like some russian dishes and eat them too in Russia and I have liked some confetti? I have also mentioned that eating is a matter of taste and preference that you are used to. But to most outsiders the russian food is not very delicious and is bland and plain. This is an objective opinion. It may sound neutral to you, it I say its great. But like or not like is not the topic.
Russian Cuisine is.
"This is home cooking and home cooking is traditional cooking and not what restaurants serve in a hyped manner."
Absolutely true. And home cooking itself can be: a) bad home cooking b) good home cooking. One cannot judge the whole cuisine by a result of attempts of a housewife who cannot cook.
- Right. But a blin is a blin. All you can do with it is smear it with honey, caviar, or something else.. kartoshka remains kartoshka. Anyways, Russians love caviar. So do the French. Caviar on bread. A dish. What's the preparation?? Put the salty lump on bread and eat.
"Restaurants have to sell their stuff, so they hype it up."
Also true. Restaurants have to make money. Restaurants are for gourmets and do not exist without chefs. But chefs, besides working in restaurants, also do research works, write articles and publish books on culinary, some try to save the traditional recipes, some promote recipes of their authorship, some do both.
- It's not a mater of writing books and making recipes. You know in India there is a vegetable dish called "sabji". Some people experimented and put the veggies on pizza base and made an Indianised pizza. Can we call this pizza Indian now? You guess the answer.
"Pelmeni - commercial or not, there is nothing so russian in it!! Its the same floor wrapped meat ball. No special preparation. I can show you the same pelmeni in traditional north east of India. They have been eating it for centuries!!"
Yes. And there is nothing Italian in ravioli. And nothing Japanese in gyoza. Why visit an Italian restaurant for pasta if I can have Chinese noodles, right? There is no point to mention that Siberian pelmeni are made of at least three kinds of meat, the dough is made on ice instead of water, the size and form must be of some certain standard...
- Well at least the name does sound Italian..!
SIberians make pelmeni on ice instead of water, cuz that's what they have. Right. So some making methods vary. And yet, its the same pelmeni. We call it Momos. If you taste it, you will be astonished on the start similarity.
Alex, one thing is good in this discussion - we both may have to learn something from each other about each other's cuisine. I appreciate this.
“Yes. Nothing much really grows in there and there are no really elaborate developed preparations. The food is plain and simple. At times, I like some of the russian food too and find it good. But most Indians will find it too simple and plain.â€
Tastes differ.
- Yes.
“The point is that what is the original cuisine and preparation methods of that country which are unique and original to it only!!!â€
So now there are patents in culinary? When different cultures use same techniques, does that mean one rips off another???
- No it doesn't. It's a free world and people learn from each other, like others' tastes and adapt or take something from them. That's fine.
But you have to be original to call it yours, isn't it?
“There is the Chinese cuisine that is authentic to China - born and developed there. There is Indian cuisine - South Indian and North Indian - born and developed there only, unlike anything else, anywhere else! There is Italian cuisine, there is French Cuisine for example too. That's what I'm talking about. I can name hundreds of dishes that are original and unique to India alone.â€
There is Chinese cuisine, French, Indian, Italian but there is no Russian cuisine and everything made for centuries is nothing. Nice. Hitler would applause.
Umm.. I'm just trying to understand .. I am trying not to sound offish or offensive in any way, because I do not intend to be that way. Everything made for centuries, is not unique to russia. The bliny are not so unique. Pancakes have been around. Russian ones maybe thinner, others may prefer thicker. Pretty similar or same.
Having said that, I don't mean to be mean or say I don't like or appreciate.
“Which Europeans bought them? Were they chocolate critics, chocolate makers, experts? he he a similar question was posed by the russian gentleman defending russian cuisine.â€
European folks from the countries with strong chocolate culture - Switzerland, Belgium and France. And the fact that people, who has tried excellent examples of hand made chocolate, admire the quality of Russian chocolate too, means a lot. Note, i did not say they had stopped eating chocolate made in their countries, they only had put Russian chocolate in their top list.
- if that was the case, i.e. europeans put russian chocolate in their top list, then I would be seeing it being sold in places like Germany and other European cities, countries.. I never saw any. There are people interested in others' cultures. For example I've been interested in Russian culture and have appreciated many aspects of it. Similarly there can be people coming to Russia from Europe for sight seeing and buying their chocolate to try it out, take back as gifts etc. That's nice.
“IF one particular traditional thing is grosser, then its what it is.â€
I didn’t say modern technologies improved the taste of chocolate. They only make it easier to bring it to the market and sell for a cheaper price. Quite a different aim.
“Besides, since it "shares" one school with the French chocolate, then its sole credit cannot go to russia. There is not enough russian in it either.â€
There are things that came to French cuisine from Italy and were adjusted to French taste and known as French nowadays and vise versa (from sauces to pastries), that’s normal practice if countries have close relationship (think of Franco-Russian cuisine, a great example of collaboration). Of course, if one wants something extremely unique and original - Russians can bake a bear for him.
- Ha ha ha..!! I like that one! How many russians are able to bake bears?! Did the early man bake raw animals to eat? Maybe find more examples of authentic unique russian cuisine. I'm trying to find one myself.
Isn’t Russian cuisine sophisticated enough? But it has never claimed to be sophisticated. As it’s never claimed to be the richest cuisine, the most complicated, neither most colourful. But it has never been bad. And saying that Russian cuisine does not exist... Well, that’s an ignorant spit into the face of the country (not just one nation, but into the face of a multi cultural country).
- See, I was feeling, you feel offended and are our defending it all. As explained before too, I never meant to offend anyone, not an individual, not a nation God forbid!!! Its not a spit into the face of anything. You are taking this too far!!!!!!! I appreciate the multi-cultural-ness of the country.
Aright so we can safely say that Russian Cuisine is something that is well used and liked by russians traditionally, but is also there in other countries and is not unique to russia and were not uniquely invented in Russia.
Russian cuisine serves its own purpose and is designed for some certain environment.
I can understand those who don’t like Russian food - they are not used to it, their organisms do not need such food, their tastes have been formed by different cultures, they miss home after all. But saying it’s crap (in your case, letting know it is) - well, I’m sorry, here you’ve gone too far. If one hasn’t tasted good examples of Russian cuisine (which includes lots of unique recipes of soups, snacks, main courses, pastries, desserts) - it only means he hasn’t tasted it, nothing more and nothing less.
- Alex, again and again, you are putting one word in my mouth - CRAP!! which I never used ever. Why are you doing that?
I simply asked you to tell me russian dishes that constitute part of authentic russian cuisine, that are unique to russia only!!
You didn't come up with any. All the "russian" dishes that I had enumerated in the first post to Winston, proved not unique to russia, even though they are considered to be traditional russian cuisine.
Does that translate as "crap" to you and that I've taken it too far? Is that objective neutral vision that you have talked about?
Again, eating is a matter of taste and preference, as you have also agreed.
Russian food as plain as compared to many others.
Do not translate and project this as me calling it "crap" and spitting at someone/something.
Topic of discussion was - what is a uniquely "russian" dish? Answer not clear.
Best Regards.
"