I need to find a country to emigrate to

[yick]

And yes, @yick, Latin America has a long history of populism targeting foreigners. Taking away sole citizenship from a full-time resident, indeed that's unlikely. But taking away dual citizenship from a foreigner who hardly spends time on the country, another story. And don't tell me that would make no economic sense, since Latin America needs foreign investment. Economically stupid is never an obstacle to populists. See Venezuela and Argentina currently, and just about every LA country at some point in the last 70 years.

I just think there is a different cultural viewpoint to citizenship and naturalisation in most of Latin America than there is in Ukraine, Poland etc - most of Latin America should be compared to Australia, New Zealand and Canada - they're countries of mass migration - might it change if Latin American countries become a lot richer - maybe, so it would make sense to get it now because once these countries become a lot more prosperous then they will close the door somewhat or at least make it a lot harder than it is now.

There are a lot of snake oil salesmen about though, I read somewhere that there are thousands of citizenship papers sitting on the Panamanian presidents desk of people who have lived there for the five year residency requirement but obviously - the requirements are a lot more than what these websites tell you.

[Shemp]

... might it change if Latin American countries become a lot richer - maybe, so it would make sense to get it now because once these countries become a lot more prosperous then they will close the door somewhat or at least make it a lot harder than it is now.

OP said he felt stifled by the culture of the USA and felt more at home in Latin America, and so was thinking of moving there permanently. In that case, it would make sense to apply for residency with work permit, then citizenship after a few years, then finally renounce USA citizenship once he was certain about his decision to make some other country his permanent home. If this is your dream, best do it while still possible because the door might close someday, as yick notes.

But then the OP referenced Doug Casey (of International Man), who is a notorious borderline scam artist who panders to frightened gold bug types who think the USA is about to collapse into hyperinflation and imagine themselves waltzing down to Paraguay, buying a half dozen passports like James Bond, maybe buying up a massive plantation worked by peons in exchange for a gold coin or two, etc, etc. At which point CE chimed in because he's susceptible to these same scam artists, though at least CE's not a gold bug yet, I'll give him that much credit. And that's when I chimed with a reality check.

OP: if you really would be happier moving to another country, then do so. Maybe even set down roots in Paraguay. Latin America is constantly being hit with economic crises and always has been and probably always will be a place with great future potential ruined by incompetent present government. However, money is not everything. Culture matters a lot, and there are some good things about Latin culture. Better to be poor and happy than rich and miserable.

There are a lot of snake oil salesmen about though, I read somewhere that there are thousands of citizenship papers sitting on the Panamanian presidents desk of people who have lived there for the five year residency requirement but obviously - the requirements are a lot more than what these websites tell you.

Yes. And we could also have a whole a thread on Latin American real estate scams and horror stories: title problems, squatters, inability to evict renters, unreasonable fines by building inspectors, maintenance problems, inability to find a buyer when you want to sell, etc. It isn't just gullible foreigners who get screwed over either. Reason locals are so good at cheating foreigners is precisely because they spend so much time practicing their cheating on other locals before they go after the foreigners. Of course, you never hear about all this from guys like Doug Casey.

[yick]

I have to say you're spot on with that and that's the 'gringo tax' and you will be years f***ing paying it! It's annoying as shit and it doesn't matter if you speak Spanish because if you speak it with a foreign accent then you're getting taxed - by every cunt! That is the one thing China (and Malaysia) definitely has over Peru - you hardly get 'Gringo Taxed' here (or Laowai Taxed...) Colombia was all right because there were price lists everywhere but in Peru it was a nightmare. I don't know about Paraguay.

I think the antidote to 'Gringo Tax' is be part of the community, when you get to know shopkeepers and stall holders, they will be more fair, if you marry a local, you leave fixing up the house with repairs and getting cable tv or whatever to the wife - I don't know how it is in the Ukraine but you're going to spend a lot of time in Latin America getting ripped off by these arseholes, weren't so bad in Colombia and it was pretty good in Argentina too, Peru was bad but I heard Chile is a lot worse - I don't know about that but I can imagine it to be bad there, and Ecuador and Bolivia too.

Loads of good things about living there - I loved Colombia but that's one of the major downsides.

[shiro2142]

One thing you need to understand about these citizenship programs is that you are dealing with bureaucrats who have the right to interpret the law. So even if the law says you can get citizenship bu marriage or residency or investment, and you pay all the fees and fill out the application correctly and hire a local law firm, a bureaucrat can still reject the application just because he feels like it.

Consider how @Winston's application for a visa for Dianne was summarily rejected by the USA consulate after he paid $160 and despite the low risk she posed, at least according to how Winston told the story: viewtopic.php?style=21&p=326953#p326953. If the USA is this arbitrary over a mere tourist visa, just imagine how a place like Paraguay could reject citizenship applications. Or maybe they don't permanently reject but you have to pay another $5000 to the lawyer and then $5000 more after that and on and on until you're so deep in you don't dare to back out and lose what you've "invested" so far.

In Ukraine, it is well known that the government often rejects citizenship and permanent residency applications for men who marry Ukrainian women (and I'm talking legitimate marriages, not fake ones) just because the bureaucrat doesn't like the look of the man. That's why I would only go the temporary residency route, where the upfront investment is very small and Ukrainian bureaucrats are known to be much more tolerant about giving foreigners 1-3 year temporary residence versus permanent residence and/or citizenship.

Government can also retroactively reject citizenship if it decides the previous ruling party was corrupt in selling citizenship by investment. Or they can demand all citizens by investment have to pay another $100K because the citizenship was sold too cheaply the first time around and thus "cheated" the native born citizens. A populist stunt like that sounds very typical of Latin America, especially a place like Paraguay. Needless to say, if you buy real estate in Paraguay, you will eventually be robbed of your ownership by corrupt legal methods. Brazilians and other fellow Latin Americans who are used to corruption might be able to hire local muscle to fight back against such theft (by bombing the thieving lawyer's car, for example), but ordinary North Americans will be helpless.

There's an incredible number of borderline scam artists pushing the idea of multiple citizenships because they can earn such high fees from these citizenship programs, same as all these borderline scan artists pushing the idea of buying foreign real estate, which is another source of high fees, or scam artists encouraging marrying foreign women versus paying foreign women to be your girlfriend. Temporary rental is always lower risk and usually lower cost. Leave the permanent options for guys from China who actually need another citizenship to escape the totalitarian CCP regime. As an American, Canadian, Brit or other European, be content with your existing citizenship and then figure out how to get temporary residence, temporary work permit, temporary housing, temporary girlfriend.

Yes, there is always a risk but that should´nt mean those who want a good backup to not try.

The other thing is who are you to tell us to leave this second citizenship option for mainland Chinese? As if the USA absolutely doesnt have a gross society that is worth fleeing, the US is the only country that taxes its citizens abroad even if we never come back. Additionally, I don´t care to leave things to Chinese people at my expense out of courtesy thank you very much! Paraguay is not Ukraine. The former has had manpower shortages for alot of its history.

[shiro2142]

... might it change if Latin American countries become a lot richer - maybe, so it would make sense to get it now because once these countries become a lot more prosperous then they will close the door somewhat or at least make it a lot harder than it is now.

OP said he felt stifled by the culture of the USA and felt more at home in Latin America, and so was thinking of moving there permanently. In that case, it would make sense to apply for residency with work permit, then citizenship after a few years, then finally renounce USA citizenship once he was certain about his decision to make some other country his permanent home. If this is your dream, best do it while still possible because the door might close someday, as yick notes.

But then the OP referenced Doug Casey (of International Man), who is a notorious borderline scam artist who panders to frightened gold bug types who think the USA is about to collapse into hyperinflation and imagine themselves waltzing down to Paraguay, buying a half dozen passports like James Bond, maybe buying up a massive plantation worked by peons in exchange for a gold coin or two, etc, etc. At which point CE chimed in because he's susceptible to these same scam artists, though at least CE's not a gold bug yet, I'll give him that much credit. And that's when I chimed with a reality check.

OP: if you really would be happier moving to another country, then do so. Maybe even set down roots in Paraguay. Latin America is constantly being hit with economic crises and always has been and probably always will be a place with great future potential ruined by incompetent present government. However, money is not everything. Culture matters a lot, and there are some good things about Latin culture. Better to be poor and happy than rich and miserable.

There are a lot of snake oil salesmen about though, I read somewhere that there are thousands of citizenship papers sitting on the Panamanian presidents desk of people who have lived there for the five year residency requirement but obviously - the requirements are a lot more than what these websites tell you.

Yes. And we could also have a whole a thread on Latin American real estate scams and horror stories: title problems, squatters, inability to evict renters, unreasonable fines by building inspectors, maintenance problems, inability to find a buyer when you want to sell, etc. It isn't just gullible foreigners who get screwed over either. Reason locals are so good at cheating foreigners is precisely because they spend so much time practicing their cheating on other locals before they go after the foreigners. Of course, you never hear about all this from guys like Doug Casey.

Good, I was a bit angered by your earlier post, I admit it and I am sorry for being rude. However, this was much more balanced and fair from your end. I get you now.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

One thing you need to understand about these citizenship programs is that you are dealing with bureaucrats who have the right to interpret the law. So even if the law says you can get citizenship bu marriage or residency or investment, and you pay all the fees and fill out the application correctly and hire a local law firm, a bureaucrat can still reject the application just because he feels like it.

Consider how @Winston's application for a visa for Dianne was summarily rejected by the USA consulate after he paid $160 and despite the low risk she posed, at least according to how Winston told the story: viewtopic.php?style=21&p=326953#p326953. If the USA is this arbitrary over a mere tourist visa, just imagine how a place like Paraguay could reject citizenship applications. Or maybe they don't permanently reject but you have to pay another $5000 to the lawyer and then $5000 more after that and on and on until you're so deep in you don't dare to back out and lose what you've "invested" so far.

In Ukraine, it is well known that the government often rejects citizenship and permanent residency applications for men who marry Ukrainian women (and I'm talking legitimate marriages, not fake ones) just because the bureaucrat doesn't like the look of the man. That's why I would only go the temporary residency route, where the upfront investment is very small and Ukrainian bureaucrats are known to be much more tolerant about giving foreigners 1-3 year temporary residence versus permanent residence and/or citizenship.

Government can also retroactively reject citizenship if it decides the previous ruling party was corrupt in selling citizenship by investment. Or they can demand all citizens by investment have to pay another $100K because the citizenship was sold too cheaply the first time around and thus "cheated" the native born citizens. A populist stunt like that sounds very typical of Latin America, especially a place like Paraguay. Needless to say, if you buy real estate in Paraguay, you will eventually be robbed of your ownership by corrupt legal methods. Brazilians and other fellow Latin Americans who are used to corruption might be able to hire local muscle to fight back against such theft (by bombing the thieving lawyer's car, for example), but ordinary North Americans will be helpless.

There's an incredible number of borderline scam artists pushing the idea of multiple citizenships because they can earn such high fees from these citizenship programs, same as all these borderline scan artists pushing the idea of buying foreign real estate, which is another source of high fees, or scam artists encouraging marrying foreign women versus paying foreign women to be your girlfriend. Temporary rental is always lower risk and usually lower cost. Leave the permanent options for guys from China who actually need another citizenship to escape the totalitarian CCP regime. As an American, Canadian, Brit or other European, be content with your existing citizenship and then figure out how to get temporary residence, temporary work permit, temporary housing, temporary girlfriend.

Yes, there is always a risk but that should´nt mean those who want a good backup to not try.

The other thing is who are you to tell us to leave this second citizenship option for mainland Chinese? As if the USA absolutely doesnt have a gross society that is worth fleeing, the US is the only country that taxes its citizens abroad even if we never come back.

Precisely. @Shemp routinely takes a very uninformed view of most things, then foolishly tries to come off as some expert. In fact, if he is not personally aware of any good reasons, to him, no good reason exists at all! Numbskulls like that are just part of the landscape in America and its best to just ignore them because they deep down want you to fill them in on what they are not considering. Better to just keep them in the dark.

Paraguay remains an excellent choice for second citizenship and your link saved me from paying more than double what I was planning to pay. Perhaps if he would move his attention away from his seasonal rental wife (a yucky street prostitute in Ukraine) he would have more to contribute than just screaming everything's a scam and everyone but him is falling for it.

[yick]

Yes, there is always a risk but that should´nt mean those who want a good backup to not try.

The other thing is who are you to tell us to leave this second citizenship option for mainland Chinese? As if the USA absolutely doesnt have a gross society that is worth fleeing, the US is the only country that taxes its citizens abroad even if we never come back. Additionally, I don´t care to leave things to Chinese people at my expense out of courtesy thank you very much! Paraguay is not Ukraine. The former has had manpower shortages for alot of its history.

You definitely should try because your heart is set on it, you speak the language and it seems you're going in with your eyes wide open - there are lots of scams and disinformation out there though and people seem to get tripped up going in - but then there is lots of that kind of information out there on the 'net as well.

There's no 'paradises' anywhere really, all these countries have their problems (just like in the US and Europe I suppose...) but when all those auld nazis f***ed off from The Reich in 1945 - they mostly managed to have a good life down there - it's possible and it is open and as a first world person with education and means - you're never going to starve down there in any capacity.

To get Nigerian citizenship - you need to have lived there 20 or 30 years, I forget which - so any citizenship programme in Latin America is very reasonable in comparison and try getting a citizenship like Thai citizenship? Impossible if you are farang.

[shiro2142]

One thing you need to understand about these citizenship programs is that you are dealing with bureaucrats who have the right to interpret the law. So even if the law says you can get citizenship bu marriage or residency or investment, and you pay all the fees and fill out the application correctly and hire a local law firm, a bureaucrat can still reject the application just because he feels like it.

Consider how @Winston's application for a visa for Dianne was summarily rejected by the USA consulate after he paid $160 and despite the low risk she posed, at least according to how Winston told the story: viewtopic.php?style=21&p=326953#p326953. If the USA is this arbitrary over a mere tourist visa, just imagine how a place like Paraguay could reject citizenship applications. Or maybe they don't permanently reject but you have to pay another $5000 to the lawyer and then $5000 more after that and on and on until you're so deep in you don't dare to back out and lose what you've "invested" so far.

In Ukraine, it is well known that the government often rejects citizenship and permanent residency applications for men who marry Ukrainian women (and I'm talking legitimate marriages, not fake ones) just because the bureaucrat doesn't like the look of the man. That's why I would only go the temporary residency route, where the upfront investment is very small and Ukrainian bureaucrats are known to be much more tolerant about giving foreigners 1-3 year temporary residence versus permanent residence and/or citizenship.

Government can also retroactively reject citizenship if it decides the previous ruling party was corrupt in selling citizenship by investment. Or they can demand all citizens by investment have to pay another $100K because the citizenship was sold too cheaply the first time around and thus "cheated" the native born citizens. A populist stunt like that sounds very typical of Latin America, especially a place like Paraguay. Needless to say, if you buy real estate in Paraguay, you will eventually be robbed of your ownership by corrupt legal methods. Brazilians and other fellow Latin Americans who are used to corruption might be able to hire local muscle to fight back against such theft (by bombing the thieving lawyer's car, for example), but ordinary North Americans will be helpless.

There's an incredible number of borderline scam artists pushing the idea of multiple citizenships because they can earn such high fees from these citizenship programs, same as all these borderline scan artists pushing the idea of buying foreign real estate, which is another source of high fees, or scam artists encouraging marrying foreign women versus paying foreign women to be your girlfriend. Temporary rental is always lower risk and usually lower cost. Leave the permanent options for guys from China who actually need another citizenship to escape the totalitarian CCP regime. As an American, Canadian, Brit or other European, be content with your existing citizenship and then figure out how to get temporary residence, temporary work permit, temporary housing, temporary girlfriend.

Yes, there is always a risk but that should´nt mean those who want a good backup to not try.

The other thing is who are you to tell us to leave this second citizenship option for mainland Chinese? As if the USA absolutely doesnt have a gross society that is worth fleeing, the US is the only country that taxes its citizens abroad even if we never come back.

Precisely. @Shemp routinely takes a very uninformed view of most things, then foolishly tries to come off as some expert. In fact, if he is not personally aware of any good reasons, to him, no good reason exists at all! Numbskulls like that are just part of the landscape in America and its best to just ignore them because they deep down want you to fill them in on what they are not considering. Better to just keep them in the dark.

Paraguay remains an excellent choice for second citizenship and your link saved me from paying more than double what I was planning to pay. Perhaps if he would move his attention away from his seasonal rental wife (a yucky street prostitute in Ukraine) he would have more to contribute than just screaming everything's a scam and everyone but him is falling for it.

I agree with much of what you are saying. I´m not sure if you know for sure that he is supporting a street hooker but if it is it is not prudent on his part.

No, naysayers like that won´t convince me to be ¨content¨ with US citizenship.

PS Ivé been to Ukraine during a winter, which is the worst time to go I think, and it seemed to me that the no visa policy has hardened the local populace including the women which contributed to anti foreign sentiment and an increase in gold digging and scams. I don´t think I´ll go back though I do want to go to Russia since being more isolated may still yield good opportunities for dating and the like. Maybe after I get Paraguayan citizenship so I don´t have to pay 100 plus for a 1 month tourist visa

[shiro2142]

Yes, there is always a risk but that should´nt mean those who want a good backup to not try.

The other thing is who are you to tell us to leave this second citizenship option for mainland Chinese? As if the USA absolutely doesnt have a gross society that is worth fleeing, the US is the only country that taxes its citizens abroad even if we never come back. Additionally, I don´t care to leave things to Chinese people at my expense out of courtesy thank you very much! Paraguay is not Ukraine. The former has had manpower shortages for alot of its history.

You definitely should try because your heart is set on it, you speak the language and it seems you're going in with your eyes wide open - there are lots of scams and disinformation out there though and people seem to get tripped up going in - but then there is lots of that kind of information out there on the 'net as well.

There's no 'paradises' anywhere really, all these countries have their problems (just like in the US and Europe I suppose...) but when all those auld nazis f***ed off from The Reich in 1945 - they mostly managed to have a good life down there - it's possible and it is open and as a first world person with education and means - you're never going to starve down there in any capacity.

To get Nigerian citizenship - you need to have lived there 20 or 30 years, I forget which - so any citizenship programme in Latin America is very reasonable in comparison and try getting a citizenship like Thai citizenship? Impossible if you are farang.

Thank you for your kind words and what you say is so true! With the exception of Adolf Eichmann I´m sure the many of the National Socialists really enjoyed their golden years down there. Back then the region wasn´t as developed as it is now for better or worse. But yeah, there are risks doing anything but I think not taking these kind of risks is much greater than the risk of being 60, alone, and in a shitty apartment in a miserable wet state like Oregon, for example. I´ve seen too many simps like this to be willing to take the ´safe¨ route.

Also, I met an Englishman who married a Thai lady and had a daughter and the Thai Immigration only granted him some sort of temporary visa after more than 5 years, I can´t remember how long. No thanks. I´m Asian and Asians I can honestly say are more racist than many other racial groups despite what campus leftists nincumpoops will tell you. They say non whites can´t be racist. HAH! That being said Latin America was built on racial miscegenation to a far greater extent than the US for example.

[Yohan]

There's no 'paradises' anywhere really, all these countries have their problems (just like in the US and Europe I suppose...)
.....
try getting a citizenship like Thai citizenship? Impossible if you are farang.

Also, I met an Englishman who married a Thai lady and had a daughter and the Thai Immigration only granted him some sort of temporary visa after more than 5 years, I can´t remember how long. No thanks. I´m Asian and Asians I can honestly say are more racist than many other racial groups despite what campus leftists nincumpoops will tell you. They say non whites can´t be racist. HAH! That being said Latin America was built on racial miscegenation to a far greater extent than the US for example.

Non-Whites can be also racist...no question about it. It happened to me too. However as a 'white man' from Europe I can say it was rare against me. Most Asian people - surely the large majority - I met in my more than 40 years living in Asia were nice towards me, regardless if in Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines, Thailand, Cambodia...

It is true, there is no 'paradise' - and all countries have some pro and some contra - which country you choose depends on your individual situation like age, health, financial independence, job qualification etc...

About Thailand:
Thailand was never great in offer visa for long-stay. Especially harsh to get a working permit.

There is no problem to enter as a tourist - spending money is welcome - but you are gone after 30 days....or 60 days - but you are gone...

If you are however legally married to a Thai citizen (legally registered with Thai authorities - and not just with some ceremony in a Buddhist temple) you can apply for a spouse visa, all what you need is some money (baht 400.000,- in a local bank) and the valid Thai documents.
This is not that difficult and it can be easily renewed after one year for the next coming year. Keep in mind, this is NOT a working permit.
I know several foreigners who did this, and there is no problem with that kind of visa.

If you are 50 over and have some money (baht 800.000,- in a local bank) you can apply for retirement one year permit. You are not allowed to work.
I had a pensioner visa already, but it expired because of this corona virus and I had no chance to go back to Thailand. I will apply again in the Thai consulate in Japan and it is not my first time, there is no problem with retirement visa if your paper work is correct. Not my first time doing this. I have my second home in Thailand and my regular home is Japan - permanent residence status. In general, all OK - I never regretted my relocation from Europe to Asia.

[flowerthief00]

But yeah, there are risks doing anything but I think not taking these kind of risks is much greater than the risk of being 60, alone, and in a shitty apartment in a miserable wet state like Oregon, for example. I´ve seen too many simps like this to be willing to take the ´safe¨ route.

Hey what's wrong with Oregon! Better too much rain than too little

I´m Asian and Asians I can honestly say are more racist than many other racial groups despite what campus leftists nincumpoops will tell you. They say non whites can´t be racist. HAH! That being said Latin America was built on racial miscegenation to a far greater extent than the US for example.

I agree with this. That Whites are if anything the least racist has been my impression.
The constant Leftist cry over racism is mostly about acquiring power.

[yick]

Yes, there is always a risk but that should´nt mean those who want a good backup to not try.

The other thing is who are you to tell us to leave this second citizenship option for mainland Chinese? As if the USA absolutely doesnt have a gross society that is worth fleeing, the US is the only country that taxes its citizens abroad even if we never come back. Additionally, I don´t care to leave things to Chinese people at my expense out of courtesy thank you very much! Paraguay is not Ukraine. The former has had manpower shortages for alot of its history.

You definitely should try because your heart is set on it, you speak the language and it seems you're going in with your eyes wide open - there are lots of scams and disinformation out there though and people seem to get tripped up going in - but then there is lots of that kind of information out there on the 'net as well.

There's no 'paradises' anywhere really, all these countries have their problems (just like in the US and Europe I suppose...) but when all those auld nazis f***ed off from The Reich in 1945 - they mostly managed to have a good life down there - it's possible and it is open and as a first world person with education and means - you're never going to starve down there in any capacity.

To get Nigerian citizenship - you need to have lived there 20 or 30 years, I forget which - so any citizenship programme in Latin America is very reasonable in comparison and try getting a citizenship like Thai citizenship? Impossible if you are farang.

Thank you for your kind words and what you say is so true! With the exception of Adolf Eichmann I´m sure the many of the National Socialists really enjoyed their golden years down there. Back then the region wasn´t as developed as it is now for better or worse. But yeah, there are risks doing anything but I think not taking these kind of risks is much greater than the risk of being 60, alone, and in a shitty apartment in a miserable wet state like Oregon, for example. I´ve seen too many simps like this to be willing to take the ´safe¨ route.

Also, I met an Englishman who married a Thai lady and had a daughter and the Thai Immigration only granted him some sort of temporary visa after more than 5 years, I can´t remember how long. No thanks. I´m Asian and Asians I can honestly say are more racist than many other racial groups despite what campus leftists nincumpoops will tell you. They say non whites can´t be racist. HAH! That being said Latin America was built on racial miscegenation to a far greater extent than the US for example.

I wouldn't want to base any long term retirement on a one year renewable visa, even a ten year renewable visa like the Malaysians have is too risky because they can just deny you and then you're out - at least in most of Latin America there are ways to stay on permenantly, I have a passport from a Latin American country and I don't have to just live there - I can live anywhere I want in South America - it is a lot better bet for me than retiring in Asia would be.

I think places like Oregon and the Pacific coast of the United States are going to be priced out for normal dudes over the next 30 years anyway, it is going to be tough going for most people there who decide to stay and are on pittance.