Momopi does this shatter your faith in government integrity?

[Winston]

Momopi,
Since you seem to have a lot of faith in authority and integrity of government, I was wondering what you make of events like this and if it shatters your faith in government?

The EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) was ordered by White House to lie and say that the air at Ground Zero after 9/11 was safe. As a result, hundreds of first responders died and many are slowly dying of cancer from it now. News sources:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/ ... 5804.shtml
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3076626/
http://www.google.com.ph/#hl=tl&source= ... cb69e98e38

And does this look like an objective investigation to you?

While several government agencies, including NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) produced reports on the collapse of the three World Trade Center buildings, they pointedly did not analyze the debris for the presence of explosives. This omission is at odds with the requirement of the national standard for fire investigation (NFPA 921), which calls for testing related to thermite and other pyrotechnics. It is also at odds with the video evidence of explosions, and the testimony of fire department personnel, more than 100 of whom officially reported hearing or seeing explosions. NIST also failed to explain the source of large quantities of molten metal in the WTC rubble, or the abundant amounts of iron microspheres in the dust.

NIST spokesperson Michael Neuman was challenged by Hartford Advocate reporter Jennifer Abel on this glaring omission in the WTC report…

ABEL: … what about that letter where NIST said it didn’t look for evidence of explosives?

NEUMAN: Right, because there was no evidence of that.

ABEL: But how can you know there’s no evidence if you don’t look for it first?

NEUMAN: If you’re looking for something that isn’t there, you’re wasting your time….

Finally, what do you make of this one, which is unspeakable?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.

The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro.

America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."

How do such documented facts fit into your views or beliefs about the honesty and integrity of government?

[momopi]

No, it does not.

An enduring government is built on ideology, but maintained through realism (realpolitik). I have faith in our leaders to make decisive cruel actions to maintain the status quo.

As for blowing up a ship in Cuba, we already did that once with USS Maine to start the Spanish-American war. Not very original or even necessary, since we already traded (removing) Jupiter MRBM's in Turkey for USSR's SS-4/5 MRBM's in Cuba after 1962.

[Winston]

No, it does not.

An enduring government is built on ideology, but maintained through realism (realpolitik). I have faith in our leaders to make decisive cruel actions to maintain the status quo.

As for blowing up a ship in Cuba, we already did that once with USS Maine to start the Spanish-American war. Not very original or even necessary, since we already traded (removing) Jupiter MRBM's in Turkey for USSR's SS-4/5 MRBM's in Cuba after 1962.

Wait, are you serious or joking? Are you saying that it's ok for governments to kill innocent people, lie, fake events, create propaganda, brainwash people, and start pointless wars that lead to millions of deaths, simply because "government knows best"? Don't you have any morals or values? On what basis do you feel that governments know best, even if they commit evil acts?

Is your reasoning totally faith based, or logic based?

Is your faith in authority greater than your value on human life? Isn't that blind fanaticism?

What if your family or loved one was killed in a government false flag operation? Would you be fine with it?

Don't you care about life and death? Don't you have a conscience?

What about Hitler? Did he know best too?

So you are for this Iraq War in which many people have died for oil, profit, and US control of the Middle East? Based on what reasons?

So you know that we blew up the USS Maine, and that the Gulf of Tonkin was faked? Millions died in the wars after that. And you think that's a good thing? Why? What was gained from it, besides profit for the military industrial complex?

Do you support CIA assassinations of leaders who don't obey US foreign policy orders too, like they did in the 50's and 60's? You should see the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" available on Amazon.com. What's going on is more evil than you think.

Did you know that Dwight Eisenhower said the military industrial complex was evil?

Do you know how evil and corrupt the Central Bank/Federal Reserve is? Alan Greenspan even said the Fed was above the law. I posted it from YouTube before. What do you think of that? Should anyone be above the law in your book and unaccountable to anyone? Why do you worship power so much?

[momopi]

Somewhere between the Ten Commandments and Machievelli's "better to be feared than loved, more prudent to be cruel than compassionate" you'd find a whole range of political options. Choose what works for you. Mine are likely to be more brutal than yours.

Before we go down the road of darwinism in this thread, I'd suggest starting with something a lot smaller, like the ethics of a merchant profiting at the expense (or ignorance) of the customer. A car salesman is not going to tell his customer what his real profit margains are, as he profits from that deception.

If you stand in that used car lot, and look up into the sky, you'd find much larger versions of the used car lot above you.

[Winston]

But you really think that government has the right to kill innocent people for its own secret agenda and motives? It has the right to lie and deceive and cover up crimes, etc?

Why???

Don't you care about right and wrong? Why the blind fanaticism? I thought you were logical and neutral?

On what basis do you believe that government is blameless and justified for all its crimes and atrocities?

What if you were one of the first responders slowly dying of cancer and taking lots of drugs everyday, cause the EPA lied? Are you saying you wouldn't blame the EPA or be mad, but hold them infallible cause "the government or white house must have had a good reason to lie, even though I'm dying of cancer" cause in your belief, authority is always right?

Is that correct? Or not?

What I don't get is that, since you're not a murderer and you have solid morals, why would you condone murderous acts by people in positions of power?

[Winston]

Also Momopi,
Let's suppose that 9/11 was an inside job and that JFK was killed as a result of a government inside conspiracy. Would you then be in favor of letting the murderers get away with it, simply cause in your philosophy, "they are in positions of authority and are smarter and wiser than us and are not accountable to us or the law"?

[momopi]

The international order and relations between countries is kind of like shopping plazas. When a large, successful retail center is established, it has a dominating effect on the local retail scene. And if they get big enough, they affect the retail market next town over.

A powerful nation is like a succesful shopping plaza. The power projection range is how far your retail center affects retail market across distance, and your spheres of influence includes all the smaller stores that want to lease or franchise from you. Eventually, you're left with the powers (successful retail centers), the client states (stores that leae/franchise from you), and the shrimps (little guys of no consequence).

You can be successful at being a shopping plaza, a franchise, or even a shrimp. If America is a successful shopping plaza, then Japan is a successful franchise and Switzerland is a successful shrimp. Heck the Swiss even have a smaller shrimp named Liechtenstein in their sphere.

So choose what you want to be, and know the consequences of your choice. If you want to be a successful mega shopping plaza, you have to be ruthless in crushing your competition (see: Walmart). If you want to be a successful franchise, you need to pay your dues and follow the franchise rules. If you want to be a successful shrimp, you need to either find happiness in poverty or launder money. Shrimps without protection also have to be careful not to get eaten.

============

If I operated a large successful retail plaza, I'd think in terms of extending my power projection and increasing my sphers of influence. Along the way I will have to crush my competition. I'd cite Clausweitz on the 3 conditions of crushing someone:

1) do not put the hurt others simply because you want to hurt them
2) have a clear and limited objective
3) to render your opponent helpless or impotent


And if I find myself as head of state for some shrimp country, I'd think in terms of "how do I become the next great international tax haven?" If succeed, I'd make an enclave of wealth like Singapore, Monaco, etc. I fail, then the country falls into poverty and its women look up to "rich foriengers" as salvation for all their problems.

Does that make sense to you?

[Winston]

Well I get what you're saying. Obviously power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. When you have power, you can get away with crimes, as the elite are often above the law.

However, we are talking about morals here. Are you saying that if you have a lot of power, then it is ok to kill innocent people for your "secret agenda"? Isn't murder of the innocent always wrong no matter what? Isn't it an absolute moral? Or you believe that "might makes right"?

Do you not agree that power can make one evil? Are you not against evil?

Here is an interesting book you should note:

Amazon.com Review
John Perkins started and stopped writing Confessions of an Economic Hit Man four times over 20 years. He says he was threatened and bribed in an effort to kill the project, but after 9/11 he finally decided to go through with this expose of his former professional life. Perkins, a former chief economist at Boston strategic-consulting firm Chas. T. Main, says he was an "economic hit man" for 10 years, helping U.S. intelligence agencies and multinationals cajole and blackmail foreign leaders into serving U.S. foreign policy and awarding lucrative contracts to American business. "Economic hit men (EHMs) are highly paid professionals who cheat countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars," Perkins writes. Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is an extraordinary and gripping tale of intrigue and dark machinations. Think John Le Carré, except it's a true story.

Perkins writes that his economic projections cooked the books Enron-style to convince foreign governments to accept billions of dollars of loans from the World Bank and other institutions to build dams, airports, electric grids, and other infrastructure he knew they couldn't afford. The loans were given on condition that construction and engineering contracts went to U.S. companies. Often, the money would simply be transferred from one bank account in Washington, D.C., to another one in New York or San Francisco. The deals were smoothed over with bribes for foreign officials, but it was the taxpayers in the foreign countries who had to pay back the loans. When their governments couldn't do so, as was often the case, the U.S. or its henchmen at the World Bank or International Monetary Fund would step in and essentially place the country in trusteeship, dictating everything from its spending budget to security agreements and even its United Nations votes. It was, Perkins writes, a clever way for the U.S. to expand its "empire" at the expense of Third World citizens. While at times he seems a little overly focused on conspiracies, perhaps that's not surprising considering the life he's led. --Alex Roslin --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

Also as this reviewer noted, in a corrupt system, WE ALL LOSE, including the rich.

American Centurion comes clean; sets example for us all, November 17, 2004

By Follow the Money (Massachusetts USA) - See all my reviews

This review is from: Confessions of an Economic Hit Man (Hardcover)

I got Confessions of an Economic Hit Man yesterday and finished reading it today. It's a vital personal story that illuminates an entire global system. A system based on greed, power, and control. Others before Perkins have warned of this system, but usually not from an insider's perspective. If you're interested in more details David Korten has done the best job documenting how rich powerful corporations with the help of governments get richer at the expense of the poor who get poorer. This isn't a new idea. But in today's world, the major media refuse to report this story. Perkins understands the essence of the problem: empire, oppression, inequality, and greed can seem to bring benefits to some people in the short term ... but in the long term we all loose, even the rich. We are all spiritually harmed by the lies and rationalizations. We are all put at risk when the world becomes more polarized into haves and have-nots. Our humanity is undermined when we benefit from that which hurts others. Undoubtedly most perpetrators have convinced themselves that what they do is OK and even that they'll be able to avoid consequences. Their money and power will insulate them in their exclusive gated communities. John Perkins' real feat in this book is not exposing a corrupt system, but in providing an example of one person who was able to look into his life with a deep honesty and realize it was hurting him as well as prospects for the future of all people. All of us can learn from his awakening. Does driving a big SUV make us more secure? Happier? A better person? A better citizen?

[momopi]

Or you believe that "might makes right"?

Ding ding ding ding ding!!! You've just described the UN Security Council.

[Winston]

Or you believe that "might makes right"?

Ding ding ding ding ding!!! You've just described the UN Security Council.

But what are YOUR personal and moral beliefs? And why are you afraid to describe them here?

[momopi]

Or you believe that "might makes right"?

Ding ding ding ding ding!!! You've just described the UN Security Council.

But what are YOUR personal and moral beliefs? And why are you afraid to describe them here?

Economic Imperialism.

If anyone has trouble defining this, let me provide some examples.

On personal level, lets say you leverage your greater wealth/credit and purchase rental properties in poor-er neigborhoods. You profit from the tenants, who are lower on the socio-economic ladder. A similar example would be someone from first world nation going to a poor-er country to leverage his status to gain sexual favors with local women.

On international level, we can look at the G8 with 14-15% of world population but accounts for 60% of global GDP. Needless to say it's a grossly uneven distribution of wealth. But, it also provides high standard of living to the lucky few. You should know by now which side of the economic divide I want to be in.

There are reasons why political leadership is given legal immunity and men of virtue take vows of poverty. Scroll up through this thread and you will see them.

[Winston]

You mean you are in favor of economic imperialism? Even when it uses deception, enslaves others, causes deaths, pain, etc.? You don't see the "wrong" in that? Maybe in your next life, you will be born on the other side of the coin, so you will see the "wrong" in it?

Remember the guy I quoted John Perkins, he used to be an economic hitman and helped conduct these rogue operations for "economic imperialism". But later he had an awakening and realized the harm he was doing to the planet and to the long term future of the Earth. So he quit doing it and exposed the whole thing, against the wishes of his superiors who had bribed and threatened him against going public.

Many Europeans know about the US's economic imperialism and hate it.

Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn describe many government atrocities that are not told to the American public.

So you are in favor of CIA assassinations too?

Do you know who Ted Gunderson is? Or Mike Rupert? They are FBI chiefs and police officers who came out with inside knowledge of horrible things going on in government that you are not supposed to know. It's not limited to profit only, but involved Satanic rituals as well. You can google their names on YouTube to find their speeches and lectures.

Anyhow, economic imperialism and taking advantage of the poor are one thing. But what about murdering innocent people? Why do you think that is right? You are not a murderer, so why do you hold the elite to be infallible and above the law? Do you think God or Karma holds the elite to be above morals and right and wrong too?

You believe that IF there was an inside government conspiracy behind JFK, Gulf of Tonkin, 9/11, etc. that the perpetrators should not be punished, because they are above the law and have a right to do such things? You really believe that they do no wrong?

You believe in Social Darwinism. But the progressives in the world believe in interconnectedness, mutual dependency, etc. That is a win-win situation for the planet, whereas your system is a world divided into the haves and the have nots, which is a world perpetually in conflict. Do you even see the big picture?

You should see the film "Zeitgeist Addendum". It will awaken you. Watch it at http://video.google.com, if you are interested in learning new things.

[momopi]

You mean you are in favor of economic imperialism? Even when it uses deception, enslaves others, causes deaths, pain, etc.? You don't see the "wrong" in that? Maybe in your next life, you will be born on the other side of the coin, so you will see the "wrong" in it?

You'll find your answer in post #4 in this thread.

For those who are too lazy to click, let me repeat: a merchant profits at the expense (or ignorance) of the customer.

Let's say you find some digital cameras in the US for $100, and you know they sell for $300 in the Philippines. You buy a few, take them back and sell to others for $250 each. Are you going to tell your customers that you made $150 profit? Or tell them that they could do the same and where to buy it for $100? Is it wrong to profit $150 from someone's ignorance?

Religion is a product of man, and all religions will eventually go into history like the Greek Gods. But suppose if there is a reincarnation, where in this life I'm running a large shopping plaza profiting from my tenants, and in the next I end up as a shrimp. You'll find my answer in post #7 in this thread.

The kind of system that you advocate is non-market economics. If and when we reach the level when we have Star Trek's "replicators", we may evolve to Technocracy, which is a form of non-market economics. Until then, we'll continue to compete for profit and resources.

-----------------

I think it's about time I comment on 9/11. Some of you think it's a grand government scheme. I see it as a bunch of pissed off Saudi Arabs going for round 2 on the WTC (first round in '93). But since the House of Saud is an ally, we couldn't punish them so we picked politically feasible targets (Afghan/Iraq). However, unlike Bush Sr, Bush Jr. flunked the 2nd condition for War by Clausweitz. Instead of a clear, limited objective, he extended to some vague "nation building" concept and f*cked it up, which is why we're still there. That sums up my opinions on the subject. If you wish to discuss 9/11 conspiracy, you can start a poll and ask other members if they think your belief that it's a conspiracy is correct, or my view is closer to reality. Please post this paragraph in its entirely (and unmodified form) as my position on the subject.

A different position held by a former coworker, was that Iraq was the most progressive and militarily powerful Arab country, and thus we picked them out. There are many possible military objectives, such as preventing them from building the bomb, removing a threat to Israel/Saudi Arabia, and so on. But the political objective was to transform Iraq into a western style government, one that "speak the same language" (not literally) and play by same set of rules and values as us. We would then guarantee their economic prosperity in the capitalist world trade system and, hopefully it'd have a slow domino effect of transforming other Arab states. Iraq was chosen because its people aren't religious conservatives like the Wahabbi's, and thus they'd be more open to western ways. Failing this, should the religious conservatives take power and dominate the Arab region, then a "clash of civilizations" would be inevitable later, something that the US would prefer to avoid if possible.

I didn't agree with all of his points, primarily because I think that goes way beyond our capability. But casual observers might miss the fact that the 1+ million casualties in Iraq are completely missing from the said discussions, and the question of ethics is buried under national-political objectives.

[Winston]

You mean you are in favor of economic imperialism? Even when it uses deception, enslaves others, causes deaths, pain, etc.? You don't see the "wrong" in that? Maybe in your next life, you will be born on the other side of the coin, so you will see the "wrong" in it?

You'll find your answer in post #4 in this thread.

For those who are too lazy to click, let me repeat: a merchant profits at the expense (or ignorance) of the customer.

Let's say you find some digital cameras in the US for $100, and you know they sell for $300 in the Philippines. You buy a few, take them back and sell to others for $250 each. Are you going to tell your customers that you made $150 profit? Or tell them that they could do the same and where to buy it for $100?

Religion is a product of man, and all religions will eventually go into history like the Greek Gods. But suppose if there is a reincarnation, where in this life I'm running a large shopping plaza profiting from my tenants, and in the next I end up as a shrimp. You'll find my answer in post #7 in this thread.

-----------------

I think it's about time I comment on 9/11. Some of you think it's a grand government scheme. I see it as a bunch of pissed off Saudi Arabs going for round 2 on the WTC (first round in '93). But since the House of Saud is an ally, we couldn't punish them so we picked politically feasible targets (Afghan/Iraq). However, unlike Bush Sr, Bush Jr. flunked the 2nd condition for War by Clausweitz. Instead of a clear, limited objective, he extended to some vague "nation building" concept and f*cked it up. That sums up my opinions on the subject. If you wish to discuss 9/11 conspiracy, you can start a poll and ask other members if they think your belief that it's a conspiracy is correct, or my view is closer to reality. Please post this paragraph in its entirely (and unmodified form) as my position on the subject.

But the post # 4 you cited does not answer the question. You used a typical example of buying low and selling high. That is a typical way of doing business. It's not considered unethical by most.

But KILLING AND MURDERING are considered unethical by most. Why do you not see the difference here? You're using a legal buy and sell transaction to answer the ethics of killing innocent people to start a war. Do you not see the obvious irrelevance in that? One is about buying and selling, the other is about MURDER of human life, and deception as well. They could not be more different, so why are you comparing them? That is highly illogical.

Hitler did it with Reischtag. He burned one of his own buildings and blamed it on the communists, to start a war and instigate his form of "the patriot act". You consider his act justified too?

Again, do you consider murder by the elite, of innocent people, to be right or wrong? You did not answer that with post # 4 or any post above.

As to 9/11, how much research have you done? To really research the topic takes many days and weeks. Have you read any books by David Ray Griffin? Have you seen the key films I recommended? If you saw the three films I recommend, with a 20 percent open mind, you will believe that there is more to 9/11 than the official story, which contains HUNDREDS of contradictions, improbabilites, and impossibilities as well.

There are many legit credible reasons to doubt the official 9/11 story. Did you know that? If not, you should research the topic first before jumping to conclusions. Or else admit that you don't know.

I can guarantee you that if you study the real evidence behind 9/11, you will find that it is more overwhelming than you can imagine. But for some reason, people such as you seem to have a dismissive attitude toward it and refuse to examine all the available evidence and data. Why is that? Isn't that emotional and not logical?

I can show you a flow chart that shows step by step, how ALL the features of the WTC and Building 7 collapse FIT that of a controlled demolition and NOT ONE characteristic of the collapse fits the official fire induced theory. That's using the SCIENTIFIC METHOD. But would that mean anything to you? Or would your mind automatically dismiss it and refuse to look at it due to bias???

Are you sure you are 100 percent objective about this topic?

For example, how do you explain the thermite evidence found in the WTC dust? Several scientists have found it, including one in Copenhagen. It's SCIENTIFIC FORENSIC EVIDENCE. And it should be front page headline news. But it isn't. Why? The Truth movement is asking why?

Most people here do not want to talk about 9/11. But you can post your theory on the forums of abovetopsecret.com. Their 9/11 section is the most active I've ever seen. Or post it on 911blogger.com. (though I have no idea how to register on there, as I can't find a registration link)

At the very least though, you admit that the Bush Administration KNEW about 9/11 in advance and let it happen right? Of that, the evidence is absolutely certain and there is no doubt about it.

PS - What about all the structural engineers and MIT professors who doubt the official story? And the scientists, engineers, military officers, etc.? Does that mean anything to you?

If you dare, click here: http://www.patriotsquestion911.com

[Winston]

Momopi, do you think people like these would endorse something that's bullshit that is backed by zero evidence, and put their full name to it too?

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

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