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[Ghost]

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[Jester]

I'd really be more interested in maps that showed how the mosaic of duchies and principalities that arose as Rome receded. I am curious how many of them were German invaders, how many were German mercenaries went rogue, and how many were local officials who grabbed the brass ring.

Looking to the future...

[MrPeabody]

That is exceptional.

[MrMan]

I'd really be more interested in maps that showed how the mosaic of duchies and principalities that arose as Rome receded. I am curious how many of them were German invaders, how many were German mercenaries went rogue, and how many were local officials who grabbed the brass ring.

Looking to the future...

I thought the duchies were formed and given to leaders of the Lombards, a Germanic tribe that invaded Italy after Roman influenced weakened after the capital moved to Constantinople and that city eventually stopped defending the original capital.

[Jester]

I thought the duchies were formed and given to leaders of the Lombards, a Germanic tribe that invaded Italy after Roman influenced weakened after the capital moved to Constantinople and that city eventually stopped defending the original capital.

Yeah at one point (it's disputed) a Byzantine just left the Pope in charge of Rome, with no troops.

At one point (not disputed) the re-occupying Byzantines looted metal out of public buildings in Rome to make weapons (they did need them). So the "lawful" authorities were evacuating, abdicating, delegating, and beating a path to the door. Not all though. Into the Middle Ages Rome still had a native class of "equestrian" aristocrats, who helped choose the Pope.

Yes the Lombards came in... Ostrogoths over in Ravenna... Visigoths into Spain... Franks...

Were there other places besides the City of Rome itself where a Church or public official stepped up and took power?

This is the period that interests me. The transition.

I guess the first place it happened was Britain. In Britain, maybe Wales or Cornwall, a Roman commander, either of native Celtic blood or who was married into it, chose to stay after the Roman evacuation and organized Christian resistance to the initially pagan Saxon or Danish invaders. This the original Arthur Pendragon.

My UNDERSTANDING is that some of the Germanic rulers pretended to be loyal to Rome, even long past the period of actual Roman authority. Did they maintain Roman law? Were Romanized populations unmolested? What was it like? Did taxes go up? Or maybe drop with fewer bureaucrats to support? Was one duke a totalitarian asshole, another next door a man of the people?

And since the thread is originally on maps... was it mostly little principalities like Monaco, or in medieval Germany, that later joined into kingdoms? Or was it huge nations under a powerful king, that later split up and delegated power to little dukes etc? I've looked at an old map and saw "the Duchy of Benevento". Who were those guys? Roman holdouts? Intrepid Goth invaders? Good Catholics or Arian heretics? Etc.

One city whose story I did read about was Venice. Apparently a bunch of Romans evacuated to Venice. and uninhabited swampy island group, to save their women from ravaging invaders. And they called themselves the "Roman Republic of Venice", something like that.

Some silly little places, like Liechtenstein, Monaco, Andorra, seem to maintain their independence. Others get swallowed up. Why? What if anything was fundamentally different about them? If they were formed in the same process as Benevento or Florence, why are they still around?

(I am asking more questions than Winston...)

[Wolfeye]

There's also the muslims involved in all that. I forget what era of history, but it seems quite a bit got blamed on German invaders that they didn't actually have a hand in. The history seems to be omitted in discussion/education simply because it's not a point of history people really want to reflect on. A lot of horrendous things happened across a long span of time, which is something people don't really want to get into.

Another thing is that even if it's simply stating what happened, if someone says something that reflects poorly on muslims, they flip out & start screaming about racism & religious persecution. Kind of a "don't describe me as I am when it makes me look bad" stance on things.

[Jester]

There's also the muslims involved in all that. I forget what era of history, but it seems quite a bit got blamed on German invaders that they didn't actually have a hand in. The history seems to be omitted in discussion/education simply because it's not a point of history people really want to reflect on. A lot of horrendous things happened across a long span of time, which is something people don't really want to get into.

Another thing is that even if it's simply stating what happened, if someone says something that reflects poorly on muslims, they flip out & start screaming about racism & religious persecution. Kind of a "don't describe me as I am when it makes me look bad" stance on things.

All true.

The Arabs got Sicily for a while, and had an outpost right in the middle of the boot for a long time. Used to conduct raids all over.

The Turks invaded Italy at least three times.

You're right, noone talks about all that.

BUT... the point is that the Germanics actually built functioning societies out of what they conquered, inherited, defended, or joined. The Arabs and the Turks were robbers, or leeches. That's why I'm not asking about how Roman Libya became Arab Libya, etc. It doesn't interest me.

Not because I dislike Arabs and like Germans. Fact is, at my age, I am more likely to marry an Arab than a German.

Rather the point is, what could happen to the USA in the future. That's what intrigued me about this map thing. What happens to a once-noble empire, when its government falls into the hands of oligarchs, racketeers, whores, homosexuals and so on? Do people run in circles screaming in terror till Gothic horsemen ride in and rape and enslave? Or (as I heard in the case of German Saxons entering Britain) do warriors offer protection in return for land etc? Do old institutions (the State of Arizona, the State of Nevada) still function when the dust settles? Do old institutions get resurrected (The Confederate States of America, the Kingdom of Hawaii, Deseret)? Do localities become nations (Kalispell, Montana, or the future San Diego Republic)? Do military bases in rich areas settle their families and keep it, even when their government pulls out (US bases in Alaska & Hawaii; Romans in Romania) or do they cut and run when the locals whom they are protecting prove fickle (Americans in Vietnam, Byzantines in Egypt). Do people have the good sense to separate when they have no common interests (West Los Angeles versus East Los Angeles), or do they try to maintain mixed regimes even at a micro-level? Is there withering vicious continuing warfare, or do people pretty much go on with their lives?

Some kinds of infrastructure do persist. Roman roads and aqueducts still exist all the way to Britain.

But some benefits of empire cease to exist. When the FSU fell, the Soviet planned economy disappeared. Once-prosperous Armenia was cut off from the Russian factories it had serviced, and the Central Asian produce that it had imported. Moreover, greedy gypsy-souled Georgians to the north, fellow Christians, had gleefully and systematically embargoed and stolen shipments to Armenia - while Armenia was in a desperate 2-front war against Azerbaijan, 10 times its population. Soviet law and order no longer existed. People starved and froze. So the crumbling of an empire can lead to some harsh consequences, even for areas that assert freedom.

So I'm wondering what I might expect in the USSA. And I believe in learning from history.

I know enough history that I do not call the Middle Ages the "Dark Ages". I call the period after A.D. 700 or so (perhaps earlier) the Christian Millennium. I respect the German saint (and fellow polygamist) Charlemagne, and the Christian empire he founded. The question in my mind is - how did formerly-Roman Europe GET from Roman rule to ordered Christian rule?

Back to the map thing - what was happening on the ground in the areas NOT colored Roman anymore?