Should one feel ashamed about using P4P

[tamdrin12]

Hey,
I'm thinking about using hookers sometimes here in Thailand. The reason is I just think its too much trouble to court women. I don't really like relationships with Thai women and the ones I've met aren't that good. Or the good ones have tons of guys going after them same as everywhere. Some may be successful picking up backpacker chicks for one night stands but again, that is too much work and im not attracted to most backpacker chicks.

That leaves me with the option to take out some girls for money sometimes just to get my kicks off. I think it will help remove the tension and than maybe another normal girl will come along.

Many guys I know even here in Thailand say they have never paid for sex and they make it seem like its such a loser thing to do. Is it really? Is it really better to bang tons of chicks that you pick up in clubs because your suave "game" enables you to do so. I'm not a loser but I don't have time for game and all this BS. One guy I met brought up the argument like well.. I never used a hooker because if I do it once it will give me excuse to do it again and again. I think it is possible to do it in moderation. Don't you think? What do you guys think?

How easy is it to get STD's if you use a condom?

[Rock]

Can't answer your second question. But here's some thoughts on the first.

So many guys seem to naturally tie their ego and self worth to their ability to attract and get intimate with women, especially women who are better looking and younger. If you can overcome that tendency, you've gone a long way towards maturing as a person, IMO.

The problem with P4P is that it seems to be hard to find true professionals. The industry tends to attract a lot of girls who are either not that attractive or who don't really care much about satisfying their customers. When you find an exception to these issues and the price is reasonable for your budget, then you can definitely derive value from it without anyone getting hurt - mutual benefit.

If you do find providers who make you happy, don't have any moral or faith qualms with it, and can get over your own ego, then why not? Just take care to make sure you are all good on the STDs, potential pregnancy, and other related issues.

[tamdrin12]

Thanks for your comments Rock.. Will post more about it later!

[chibolo]

Personally I would never use P4P (although I don't really judge guys who do). Here is why:

-I don't like the idea of having sex with someone who isn't attracted to me and may even be disgusted by me (my main reason for not doing it).
-I don't like sleeping with someone who has slept with maybe hundreds of men. Some prostitutes have sex with dozens of men every day, that is just disgusting.
-It is humiliating to have to pay a woman for sex.
-It can't be emotionally healthy for women to be used for sex by who knows how many (often creepy and disgusting) men.
-I wouldn't want my daughter or sister to be a prostitute.

Just my opinion...

[droid]

Personally I would never use P4P (although I don't really judge guys who do). Here is why:

I used to think like you. But for some of us the physiological need is just too great. Keeping this in mind, here's some observations:

#1

-I don't like the idea of having sex with someone who isn't attracted to me and may even be disgusted by me (my main reason for not doing it).

That's not necessarily true. some women really like men in general. I've had experiences (mainly with euro girls) where they've really been into me. And believe me, you can tell.

#2

-I don't like sleeping with someone who has slept with maybe hundreds of men. Some prostitutes have sex with dozens of men every day, that is just disgusting.

True, but the same goes for many of the "free" club skanks (think of bathroom blowjobs or bangs). At least pros really know how to protect themselves.

#3

-It is humiliating to have to pay a woman for sex.

You always pander in some way. Also see #1

#4

-It can't be emotionally healthy for women to be used for sex by who knows how many (often creepy and disgusting) men.

See #1

#5

-I wouldn't want my daughter or sister to be a prostitute.

That's a bit of a common fallacy, i wouldn't want my relatives working at mcdonalds, but i'll still eat there.

Having said that, p4p has its function, but personally i'm kind of over it. Now i'm really pursuing the romance part more for real in my current location.

[chibolo]

I used to think like you. But for some of us the physiological need is just too great.

I understand that, which is why I don't judge sexually frustrated or lonely guys who do use them.

That's not necessarily true. some women really like men in general. I've had experiences (mainly with euro girls) where they've really been into me. And believe me, you can tell.

Are you sure about that? Personally I would just think she was acting no matter how convincing the act and that would be enough to ruin the experience for me.

True, but the same goes for many of the "free" club skanks (think of bathroom blowjobs or bangs). At least pros really know how to protect themselves.

I wouldn't want to have sex with a club skank either, at least not with one who sleeps with hundreds of men like most prostitutes.

You always pander in some way. Also see #1

I don't buy that argument that you "always pay for it". As if women never have sex with men just because they are attracted to them. Just look at the guys in poor countries. Many of them are completely broke yet they often have very attractive girfriends. Not ALL women are gold diggers.

That's a bit of a common fallacy, i wouldn't want my relatives working at mcdonalds, but i'll still eat there.

Difference is that working at McDonalds is still a lot better than being a prostitute (at least in my opinion).

[droid]

That's not necessarily true. some women really like men in general. I've had experiences (mainly with euro girls) where they've really been into me. And believe me, you can tell.

Are you sure about that? Personally I would just think she was acting no matter how convincing the act and that would be enough to ruin the experience for me.

I'm positive, their flared flower didn't lie, as well as the body language and dialogue. In contrast, I've had a couple bad experiences too. Some friends have told me they've had experiences where they don't even let them touch them. Winston has posted over this, those chicks are just people, not oscar-winners.
Some women go into this because they actually can't have enough of men (nympho). Whether that's healthy or not is another matter.
Your thought of them necessarily being "disgusted" by men is a bit of US brainwashing.

True, but the same goes for many of the "free" club skanks (think of bathroom blowjobs or bangs). At least pros really know how to protect themselves.

I wouldn't want to have sex with a club skank either, at least not with one who sleeps with dozens of men every day like some prostitutes.

True, but we're talking about non-ideal situations. Of course we'd all like to have access to a bunch of romantic virgins.

You always pander in some way. Also see #1

I don't buy that argument that you "always pay for it". As if women never have sex with men just because they are attracted to them. Just look at the guys in poor countries. Many of them are completely broke yet they often have very attractive girfriends. Not ALL women are gold diggers.

I'm not talking money. I'm saying you almost always have to monkey around to get some attention. Being a "game" entertaining monkey, or dancing like a court-jester. Most times a bit of your dignity is compromised anyway. But you're right, sometimes you just hit it off and a girl is head over heels for you.

That's a bit of a common fallacy, i wouldn't want my relatives working at mcdonalds, but i'll still eat there.

Difference is that working at McDonalds is still a lot better than being a prostitute (at least in my eyes).

Point is, it's not your actual relatives that will do it. As long as nobody is forced, it's up to individuals' choices.

Again, I'm not doing an extreme defense of this, just saying that there's nothing wrong with trying it a few times in your life.

[fschmidt]

Using hookers is morally superior to seduction in every way and is recommended in the Bible (Proverbs 6:26). The reason that modern men oppose prostitution is because they are evil and seducing women is effectively a means of training yourself to be evil because sluts are attracted to evil men and by seducing sluts, you will gradually learn to be evil to attract them. Reject modern culture, follow the Bible, and use hookers.

[romparoo]

So many guys seem to naturally tie their ego and self worth to their ability to attract and get intimate with women, especially women who are better looking and younger. If you can overcome that tendency, you've gone a long way towards maturing as a person, IMO.

It is self pandering to say that you are now going to settle for a non-attractive woman because you have become more 'matured'. I don't think it's too much into ego or self worth, but more of nature's calling, unless you are talking about a guy blatantly lying to his friends about how many time he gets laid. Why would anyone want to overcome the powerhouse of evolution? This 'tendency' is there for a good reason. I am not saying everyone should aim for a solid 9 or 10 partner, but forum like this exists because women have become too unrealistic to the detriment of both sexes, most women simply do not realize it yet until they are older and start to 'settle'.

p4p can fill in this gap, and even more. I think OP focus too much on the 'brothel' or 'street hooker' type of p4p. Actually, marriage itself is one form of p4p but with the 'contractual terms' loosely defined. Try be an ugly dude and provide zero financial benefits, see if you can ever get a marriage. And don't forget dowry was a big factor across different cultures long time ago, until the modern marriage evolved to fit into the 'politically correct' mold.

To be realistic, if you want to get laid, you need sexual currency, either by good physical appearance or direct / indirect monetary benefits. One thing men find difficult to understand is the sexual currency and its market mechanism. This has real tangible use and impact in society, but one can only learn by two means: either you were born with it (extremely good looks for men, sexually arousing body features for women), or learn from those who were born with it (most women). If you do not understand why young women spend so much time making selfies, then you do not understand how to measure and use sexual currency.

P4P is like the blue pill red pill kind of thing. You cannot explain it to someone who has never done it, because he will never believe what you say or simply cannot understand. When this happens, he will throw out his own invented moral superiority, and use that as a cover for ignorance. If p4p is lame, it wouldn't have been called the oldest profession in the world. There is only one way to open OP's eyes, that is to take the other pill. If the OP takes the other pill, my advice is don't chicken out and jump back into the matrix yet just because the fake reality is more comfortable mentally. Stay outside the matrix long enough to see the full picture, the real picture. When you reach 20/20 vision outside the matrix, you will realize P4P is not just shagging, it is also about understanding women as a person, mentally and sexually, which many men seem to lack because of so few interactions with women.

It's all about experiencing women and when you become experienced, you will see somewhere in the middle the definition blurs between a tasteless transaction and a good partnership of both sexes. Remember friends with benefits, sugar babies, casual cohabitation? How about a few women who're willingly staying with one man, knowing full well they share this one man. How did this happened, what made these women happily staying, while at the same time some rich kid with a BMW went for a rampage? There are many varieties out there. You cannot simply do this higher level stuff before having a thourough understanding of sexual currency and its market mechanism.

[S_Parc]

That's not necessarily true. some women really like men in general. I've had experiences (mainly with euro girls) where they've really been into me. And believe me, you can tell.

Are you sure about that? Personally I would just think she was acting no matter how convincing the act and that would be enough to ruin the experience for me.

I'm positive, their flared flower didn't lie, as well as the body language and dialogue. In contrast, I've had a couple bad experiences too. Some friends have told me they've had experiences where they don't even let them touch them. Winston has posted over this, those chicks are just people, not oscar-winners.

Here's the thing, the P4P thing is not to get too involved with someone. The fact that chibolo's self-esteem is tied to what a woman thinks about him, tells me that he doesn't have the correct worldly experience or perhaps the right lenses.

I had a P4P with a woman, who after the 2nd time, tried to convert it into a relationship. When I'd rejected her, since I wanted to keep it ALL business, she was quite hurt and upset. I'd decided to stop seeing her. Yes, women do fall in love/infatuation.

In other situations, sure, there was a bit of acting involved, however, it's more like interacting with a store clerk or a waitress at a restaurant. Are you planning on befriending every person who you can have a conversation with, about the weather, your favorite b-ball team, travel experiences, etc? No, typically, these are discourses which show that ppl are human beings. The drive to making acquaintances isn't always there.

In terms of how men interact with women, men put their net self-worth/self-esteem right there, waiting for women to either drop a sledgehammer on it or fall in love/infatuation/etc. And this is a problem.

[droid]

you will realize P4P is not just shagging, it is also about understanding women as a person, mentally and sexually, which many men seem to lack because of so few interactions with women.
It's all about experiencing women and when you become experienced, you will see somewhere in the middle the definition blurs between a tasteless transaction and a good partnership of both sexes.

That's priceless man

[Jester]

It is self pandering to say that you are now going to settle for a non-attractive woman because you have become more 'matured'. I don't think it's too much into ego or self worth, but more of nature's calling, unless you are talking about a guy blatantly lying to his friends about how many time he gets laid. Why would anyone want to overcome the powerhouse of evolution? This 'tendency' is there for a good reason. I am not saying everyone should aim for a solid 9 or 10 partner, but forum like this exists because women have become too unrealistic to the detriment of both sexes, most women simply do not realize it yet until they are older and start to 'settle'.

p4p can fill in this gap, and even more. I think OP focus too much on the 'brothel' or 'street hooker' type of p4p. Actually, marriage itself is one form of p4p but with the 'contractual terms' loosely defined. Try be an ugly dude and provide zero financial benefits, see if you can ever get a marriage. And don't forget dowry was a big factor across different cultures long time ago, until the modern marriage evolved to fit into the 'politically correct' mold.

To be realistic, if you want to get laid, you need sexual currency, either by good physical appearance or direct / indirect monetary benefits. One thing men find difficult to understand is the sexual currency and its market mechanism. This has real tangible use and impact in society, but one can only learn by two means: either you were born with it (extremely good looks for men, sexually arousing body features for women), or learn from those who were born with it (most women). If you do not understand why young women spend so much time making selfies, then you do not understand how to measure and use sexual currency.

P4P is like the blue pill red pill kind of thing. You cannot explain it to someone who has never done it, because he will never believe what you say or simply cannot understand. When this happens, he will throw out his own invented moral superiority, and use that as a cover for ignorance. If p4p is lame, it wouldn't have been called the oldest profession in the world. There is only one way to open OP's eyes, that is to take the other pill. If the OP takes the other pill, my advice is don't chicken out and jump back into the matrix yet just because the fake reality is more comfortable mentally. Stay outside the matrix long enough to see the full picture, the real picture. When you reach 20/20 vision outside the matrix, you will realize P4P is not just shagging, it is also about understanding women as a person, mentally and sexually, which many men seem to lack because of so few interactions with women.

It's all about experiencing women and when you become experienced, you will see somewhere in the middle the definition blurs between a tasteless transaction and a good partnership of both sexes. Remember friends with benefits, sugar babies, casual cohabitation? How about a few women who're willingly staying with one man, knowing full well they share this one man. How did this happened, what made these women happily staying, while at the same time some rich kid with a BMW went for a rampage? There are many varieties out there. You cannot simply do this higher level stuff before having a thourough understanding of sexual currency and its market mechanism.

Artful, cogent post

+1

This courageous masculine writer went for p4p after a long incel period. He got to know the women, and doesnt hide that in his writings. I read this book of his more than once:



Then I read an interview of him in (British) Maxim or some similar publication, back in that brief shining moment when British men's magazines were carried on American newsstands. (And when there still WERE American newsstands.)

He had no illusion of love with the women. But he felt that talking with them was like talking with an ER nurse, or a cop on the beat. They had seen everything. He was a combat addict, a heroin addict who actually stopped "using" when he went to a war zone. In p4p women he found a similar damaged but empathetic soul.

[starchild5]

Hey,
I'm thinking about using hookers sometimes here in Thailand. The reason is I just think its too much trouble to court women. I don't really like relationships with Thai women and the ones I've met aren't that good. Or the good ones have tons of guys going after them same as everywhere. Some may be successful picking up backpacker chicks for one night stands but again, that is too much work and im not attracted to most backpacker chicks.

That leaves me with the option to take out some girls for money sometimes just to get my kicks off. I think it will help remove the tension and than maybe another normal girl will come along.

Many guys I know even here in Thailand say they have never paid for sex and they make it seem like its such a loser thing to do. Is it really? Is it really better to bang tons of chicks that you pick up in clubs because your suave "game" enables you to do so. I'm not a loser but I don't have time for game and all this BS. One guy I met brought up the argument like well.. I never used a hooker because if I do it once it will give me excuse to do it again and again. I think it is possible to do it in moderation. Don't you think? What do you guys think?

How easy is it to get STD's if you use a condom?

Dude...Common...You are in the greatest place on earth...Thailand...Its just that CNN and lame stream media does not say it...They are still writing how western countries are great with top 10 list of most livable cities etc...

It seems you still have lot of baggage from being born in the west....otherwise, Why would you ask losers like us who haven't made it to paradise ...We look up to you man...Not the other way around...I envy you...I wish I can live in Thailand..I would never look back...

Learn from the Thai's ...They are perfectly ok with sleeping with hookers and yet have a wife and kids and gf's....No big deal...You are coming to the wrong people for advice..when you have Thai's to teach you....

Many in the west have broken moral code, moral dilemma, foggy view of what is right and wrong, people in the west are mentally broken. Many of us are still finding our "WAY" in this world...

You will always have people who would say go on with hookers and some would be against it...It won't take you anywhere...That's why you are in Thailand..to get away from right vs wrong debate....

Its time you teach us... The time I lived in Thailand....I observed Thai's don't differentiate between paid and free, maniacal ego, PUAs, The Stupid Pick Up games, Thai's are NOT tangled in their minds as we are for what is right and wrong...

Relationship with a women...don't define them....They have shame but minimal ego...Most men from SEA are far more free in their minds than us...Just go with the flow called Thailand and you will be fine

That's the reason..

Thailand tops the world’s happiness survey

http://news.thaivisa.com/thailand/thail ... vey/35541/

Its the most happiest country in the world right now

Just go Thai and you will be the happiest man on earth...

[tamdrin12]

Thanks for your posts guys.. All really good and well thought out stuff. I ended up bringing a girl home last night. She was definitely, in my opinion, quite good looking. Why would I settle for a not very good looking girl when there are tons of girls in Thailand? I had met her a few nights previously but I agreed to meet her again. Overall it was a pleasant experience... We drank at the bar for a while played pool a few times then at about 11;30 we went to my place... lol.... I can't do this very often because it really isn't cheap.. I paid 1000 baht at the bar for drinks and everything, then I paid her $3000 for the night. It wasn't the price she made up it was just the price I offered. Not too worried about it really, as It may only be an occasional thing and having a GF can add up to be much more expensive in the end ..

Only thing is I found myself wanting her to stay this morning when she decided to leave at 10:30... Who wouldn't want a beautiful and highly sexy Thai chick to keep them company on a Saturday?

Starchild.. If I ask the Thais about it of course they don't have as many hang ups about it, but it is fairly easy for average Thai guys to get girlfriends from what I've seen... It may be a little harder for foreigners believe it or not. We are going on a trip with the boss of the place I'm working at now and he has offered to pay for me and him to use a hooker over there .

So overall it was a good experience... The girl was a tad whiny, and there is a danger of getting attached to them at the end. I

[Mr Natural]

talking with them .... They had seen everything ..... In p4p women he found a similar damaged but empathetic soul.

When I was young I spent some years living in the fast lane and outside of society. And no doubt about it, no matter how far removed from that you become it certainly changes your life forever, so yeah I tend to feel the same way. But, you have to set limits, having empathy with bar girls and such can be quite dangerous if you're not careful.

But you're right, sometimes you just hit it off and a girl is head over heels for you.

No he isn't right. You ALWAYS pay, maybe not money, but eventually in some way you always pay. Guys who don't think so are simply delusional and it never fails to amaze me at how many guys just can't (or won't) see this. Women are expensive, in a multitude of ways. Look around.