Is letter-writing a waste of time?

[Mark Edward Davis]

Has anyone on this forum actually married a women that you first contacted through letter-writing?

[Mark Edward Davis]

OK, Let me give you my personal opinions and you can shoot at these:

• Letter-Writing is a waste of time in 97% of the cases. After talking with tour guides and owners of dating sites the answer to this one question seems to come back the same: "Of all the guys who write letters how many of them ever get face to face with someone they wrote to overseas?" The answer has been either 3% or 5% of all guys who write letters ever get on a plane. To me, this is one of the most poisonous elements to our movement. It breeds false representation, distrust, and fraud. The ladies know that the chances of these guy coming is almost zero - so what can they get out of it? Nothing unless they join the growing ranks of those who will try to cutsy up their letters to try to get some cash or gifts. What have they got to lose? For the guys, it just re-enforces the presumption that all of the girls from other countries are only after money. It does more harm then good.

I would love to hear more opinions on this. Has letter-writing resulted in your marriage?

[fschmidt]

I wish you the best of luck in helping American men find foreign women. I haven't used online dating since I have been married to my foreign wife for 20 years. But I have heard that the biggest problem with online foreign dating is that men talk to the women but then never get off their ass and go to the foreign country to meet the women. And this frustrates the women. So I suggest that you allow men to make a deposit with your company as a sign of commitment. If you offer services in the foreign country, this could be an advance for those services. If not, the deposit could be refunded when the man proves that he actually went abroad and met women. The amount of the deposit should be standard and if the man fails to go in some time period, say one year, then he should forfeit the deposit (which you would get as profit). This deposit would be voluntary, but your site should show if the man put down the deposit which would let women know which men are serious and which men are just wasting time. And men should be informed that women will be more responsive if they put up the deposit.

[The_Hero_of_Men]

OK, Let me give you my personal opinions and you can shoot at these:

• Letter-Writing is a waist of time in 97% of the cases. After talking with tour guides and owners of dating sites the answer to this one question seems to come back the same: "Of all the guys who write letters how many of them ever get face to face with someone they wrote to overseas?" The answer has been either 3% or 5% of all guys who write letters ever get on a plane. To me, this is one of the most poisonous elements to our movement. It breeds false representation, distrust, and fraud. The ladies know that the chances of these guy coming is almost zero - so what can they get out of it? Nothing unless they join the growing ranks of those who will try to cutsy up their letters to try to get some cash or gifts. What have they got to lose? For the guys, it just re-enforces the presumption that all of the girls from other countries are only after money. It does more harm then good.
  
  Flying over to meet just one girl you have been writing to is rarely successful. I'm not saying it's never successful, but nearly half of the guys I've spoken with who came back bitter and frustrated with dating overseas went this route. They fell in love with someone based on remote communication and imagined what it would be like in person. When they got to meet her in person the chemistry didn't match their fantasy expectation. Or worse, the translator was writing most of the letters so the girl was only half up to speed on who he was at all! When he quickly realizes that this may not be the one, he then has to scramble to find more ladies to date.
  
  Group dating increases the odds of finding someone you spark with. Group dating, like tours, has its good points and bad. Professional daters can infiltrate the ranks of the girls and try to pick off a few starry-eyed hopeful men of a few bucks. They leave bitter and pissed off guys in their wake. Likewise, prostitute hunters can come along these tours with the false pretense of being marriage-minded. They leave better and pissed off girls in their wake. However, a sincere minded man, who is educated as to the pit falls, can find sincere-minded women in these group settings. Anyone dating overseas should date a number of different ladies to increase his chances of finding someone that lights his fire.
  
  Most men who marry someone overseas meet their wives for the first time in-person - not from a writing. Most stories of married couples are that they just happened to have met while he was there - almost like a 'chance encounter'. I met my wife at a social, but many guys meet their lady in other ways; the lobby of the hotel, at a cafe, on the street. So here's the difficulty, how do you convince a guy to go when all you can tell him is that you'll probably just meet her because you are there? Yet it's the truth. According to the other tour guides I've interviewed (a total of four men), the common consesus was that 25% of men find someone they marry on their first trip - although they may not develop the relationship fully until after a second trip. Half of the men find women of interest they continued to correspond with after they get home and no one is certain what happens in those cases. 25% of men come back having not had a spark with any of the women they dated. How do you get someone to go if the current system only produces success in 25% of the cases and those are all from just showing up?
  
  The current system lends itself toward the outgoing man. It's hard to break through cultural barriers. It feels awkward to wonder what to say and do - or not do. There are no good ice-breakers. Therefore, the alpha male and the expressive personality type tend to be more successful because they will just act and not worry about these barriers. There needs to be more ways for men and women to become familiar with the other side, to break down the barriers, have fun, and create an atmosphere that fosters communication and connection that will increase the chances of success for men and women alike.

Comments?

I would personally love to do this, but i do not have the money. Besides, I am still in school...

[Mark Edward Davis]

Guys:

This is going to be a hot topic. I've refined my original post to talk about letter-writing for now - But I LOVE the deposit idea. I had just been considering such things. Yes, it places the guy on a different level if the ladies know he's serious and coming. What if we could have that deposit be good for any of our trips? WHAT IF WE COULD GUARANTEE THAT HE FINDS A WIFE OR THE SECOND TRIP IS ON US?

[MrPeabody]

I have been through this - married a Colombian, brought her back to the US, and then divorced. My recommendation to men who are serious is to get a certificate to teach English (or better yet get a general license to teach in the US, so you can teach any subject anywhere in the world ), then actually work and live in the country you are interested in. That way, you will meet women naturally who are interested in you, you will have a lot of options so you don't have to settle, and, most importantly, you will have the time to develop a relationship in a relaxed, non-pressured way.

Developing a long distant relationship is like the lottery, a few may get lucky, but it isn't a reliable structure for the average man to get success. The dating sites act as a filter that attract women with an agenda and that agenda might not include a lifelong marriage, The women on the sites are actually just a tiny fraction of the total number of women in the country. If you live there, your options will multiply, and you will be more likely to find a more attractive women who actually wants you for you, and someone you want to live with. When you use dating sites, you have the same problems as men dating in America - a few attractive women get all the attention and you are just one of hundreds responding to her.

The other problem is actually deciding to commit to a women you are with during your two weeks of vacation. This simply is not enough time to make such a high risk commitment. When you bring a woman to the United States, you are promising to support her financially for ten years. If you marry a manipulative woman with an agenda under American laws, she can do you serious damage.

The best way to find a good wife is to be in a situation where you are dating a lot of women so you can select the one that matches your personality and goals, and she wants you. Also, it's important that the process be relaxed and unpressured, and that you don't feel pressure to settle. Finding a woman internationally when you have two weeks of vacation is not a high probability of success situation.

If you are young, in my opinion, the case for living abroad is even stronger. You will be seen as a highly desirable mate in many third world countries, and will be able to choose the right woman for you in a relaxed and fun way. The guy who goes on a tour will meet a few women in a few days and then feel pressure to select someone because he spent so much money and has to wait another year for his vacation. Do you really want to spend all your money and time to just have the pressure to settle?

[gsjackson]

There has been at least one report on here -- was it Tron? -- of someone initiating contact by mail and ending up engaged, to a Filipina.

But I'm very much in the camp of initiating things face-to-face. I've got three months off in the summer and about $5K to spend on the project of finding a suitable woman. That includes living expenses and plane tickets. My taste runs to buxom caucasian women with some brains and a sweet disposition. I'm trying to figure out how to maximize the possibilities of the summer, and welcome all suggestions.

[Mark Edward Davis]

GSJ, you're describing my wife! lol

You do know that my wife and I are hosting a tour to Odessa/Nikolaev May 3 - 14 yes? You can see the description here: http://www.EuropeanDreamConnections.com/join.

Anyway, one more vote for getting face to face. you just increase your chances for success by 20x.

[pete98146]

When I was mapping out my attack plan for meeting filipinas on Cherry Blossoms, I came up with a top 25 list and send emails to the top 5 just to get an idea of what to expect. But my emails were simply forwarding my profile along with a request to chat on yahoo. My number #1 girl responded and we chatted online for 6 months before I went over to Cebu to meet her. So I don't know if they fits your definition of "letter writing" but I guess it's a close cousin.

I also think that that for some of the guys with less money, communicating in advance via writing is a good way to operate. Yes I agree that meeting women face to face right out of the gates would be optimal, but writing first works well if you have patience.

[Winston]

I think that writing letters is good to form initial contacts. But prolonged letter writing is a waste of time. When you meet, it will be all about the chemistry, so why delay? Better to find happiness sooner than later.

[momopi]

We're in a different time. Back in 1990's when I introduced one of my Vietnamese friends to an ex-GF's family, for purpose of hooking him up to a girl in Vietnam, it was necessary for them to communicate via hand-written letters and occasional phone calls to Vietnam.

In 1999-2000 when my ex-GF was attending college Japan, we chatted via ICQ.

In 2007 when I was dating a girl in Taipei, we used MSN and Skype.


Somewhere between all these, I used talk/ytalk, irc, ICQ, AOL IM, Yahoo IM, and whatever else I can't remember. Oh! Way back in HS when an exchange student girl moved back home, we sent each other cassette tapes as letters. If you're too lazy to read a long letter to the mic, you just fill up rest of the tape with music for her. hehehehe.

[djfourmoney]

Eastern Europe presents some issues. I say issues more than outright problems.

First and I already explained myself to the forum and recently to Mark by phone, but the short version is I had been writing two women. One for over a year and another for about a year. I came into some money so I went and saw them. Now I made the situation more complicated on my own adding side trips to Amsterdam and added a guy I barely know at the time Cameron to my roster (wingman if you will).

I spent roughly $5K on that trip for 35 days between 6 countries. IMHO not being apart of the backpacker set, I could have stayed even longer if I did and if I found something worth-wide.

I wasn't willing to take on the responsibility of raising two sons that weren't mine. At the of the day that's the reason I'm not with that German woman.

So I think getting on the plane is essential to meeting the right woman for you. But you should make an effort to have some conversion before you go.

@Peabody

Great suggestion, but let's be honest. How many people are even thinking about living overseas? That takes a great deal of thought to leave everything you know and understand to live in a culture where the language is different and that's only the start of it. Most people's career paths are not setup to work overseas. Not everybody wants to teach English, I certainly don't, I have enough trouble with it myself.

I'd say the easiest path into employment overseas is IT actually. You don't need a college degree, over 30-35% of A+ and Network + certificate holders only have a HS Degree. You'll need some experience, but usually 3-5 years to prove that you know what your doing. Most countries need talented IT personal. In countries where the internet is not completely mature, they need people to run the backbone, infrastructure of the internet/intranet.

Both directions are ideal so I will agree with you there. You can get a degree to teach English in about two years and that will allow you to get better paying jobs and also private lessons from upper class and business people. I picked IT because I already have PC knowledge and things have progressed so that you no longer have to worry about deep technological speak, its 80% software and 20% hardware.

Overall I agree with Winston, keep it short. When the internet was shiny and new, as long as you didn't take too long you could talk for a year or more and women would be willing to wait. But now, you need to get it in gear because many women have been burned by men promising to come see them but in fact never do. This is not limited to the MOB industry but to internet dating in general.

One more thing.

Don't let tails of woe and stories about bad trips turn you off from this. I still think after all the plane miles and car miles I have racked up looking for somebody to spend my life with is the proven way to roll. I still say for most men its economics that keep younger men on the ground. I will say this however, for those of you under 25 and already frustrated with AW, save all the money you can and get over there. The main complaint of the woman at socials that AFA has, though they try to minimize it, is that a) not enough men b) too many older man, not enough younger men.

[MrPeabody]

Eastern Europe presents some issues. I say issues more than outright problems.

First and I already explained myself to the forum and recently to Mark by phone, but the short version is I had been writing two women. One for over a year and another for about a year. I came into some money so I went and saw them. Now I made the situation more complicated on my own adding side trips to Amsterdam and added a guy I barely know at the time Cameron to my roster (wingman if you will).

I spent roughly $5K on that trip for 35 days between 6 countries. IMHO not being apart of the backpacker set, I could have stayed even longer if I did and if I found something worth-wide.

I wasn't willing to take on the responsibility of raising two sons that weren't mine. At the of the day that's the reason I'm not with that German woman.



So I think getting on the plane is essential to meeting the right woman for you. But you should make an effort to have some conversion before you go.

@Peabody

Great suggestion, but let's be honest. How many people are even thinking about living overseas? That takes a great deal of though to leave everything you know and understand to live in a culture where the language is different and that's only the start of it. Most people's career paths are not setup to work overseas. Not everybody wants to teach English, I certainly don't, I have enough trouble with it myself.

I'd say the easiest path into employment overseas is IT actually. You don't need a college degree, over 30-35% of A+ and Network + certificate holders only have a HS Degree. You'll need some experience, but usually 3-5 years to prove that you know what your doing. Most countries need talented IT personal. In countries where the internet is not completely mature, they need people to run the backbone, infrastructure of the internet/intranet.

Both directions are ideal so I will agree with you there. You can get a degree to teach English in about two years and that will allow you to get better paying jobs and also private lessons from upper class and business people. I picked IT because I already have PC knowledge and things have progressed so that you no longer have to worry about deep technological speak, its 80% software and 20% hardware.

Overall I agree with Winston, keep it short. When the internet was shiny and new, as long as you didn't take too long you could talk for a year or more and women would be willing to wait. But now, you need to get it in gear because many women have been burned by men promising to come see them but in fact never do. This is not limited to the MOB industry but to internet dating in general.

One more thing.

Don't let tails of woe and stories about bad trips turn you off from this. I still think after all the plane miles and car miles I have racked up looking for somebody to spend my life with is the proven way to roll. I still say for most men its economics that keep younger men on the ground. I will say this however, for those of you under 25 and already frustrated with AW, save all the money you can and get over there. The main complain of the woman at socials that AFA has though they try to minimize it, is that a) not enough men b) too many older man, not enough younger men.

You could probably get a job in IT in Europe if the economy improves. I actually had a job in the Netherlands for several years making 6 figures, but there is no work for what I do in third world countries, except for teaching. It is right that not many will choose my path. Only the man who is so disgusted by his present situation that he literally can't live with it anymore and thus puts his happiness as first priority. Anyone with less commitment then that will fail, because it ain't easy.

[djfourmoney]

OK, Let me give you my personal opinions and you can shoot at these:

• Letter-Writing is a waist of time in 97% of the cases. After talking with tour guides and owners of dating sites the answer to this one question seems to come back the same: "Of all the guys who write letters how many of them ever get face to face with someone they wrote to overseas?" The answer has been either 3% or 5% of all guys who write letters ever get on a plane. To me, this is one of the most poisonous elements to our movement. It breeds false representation, distrust, and fraud. The ladies know that the chances of these guy coming is almost zero - so what can they get out of it? Nothing unless they join the growing ranks of those who will try to cutsy up their letters to try to get some cash or gifts. What have they got to lose? For the guys, it just re-enforces the presumption that all of the girls from other countries are only after money. It does more harm then good.
  
  Flying over to meet just one girl you have been writing to is rarely successful. I'm not saying it's never successful, but nearly half of the guys I've spoken with who came back bitter and frustrated with dating overseas went this route. They fell in love with someone based on remote communication and imagined what it would be like in person. When they got to meet her in person the chemistry didn't match their fantasy expectation. Or worse, the translator was writing most of the letters so the girl was only half up to speed on who he was at all! When he quickly realizes that this may not be the one, he then has to scramble to find more ladies to date.
  
  Group dating increases the odds of finding someone you spark with. Group dating, like tours, has its good points and bad. Professional daters can infiltrate the ranks of the girls and try to pick off a few starry-eyed hopeful men of a few bucks. They leave bitter and pissed off guys in their wake. Likewise, prostitute hunters can come along these tours with the false pretense of being marriage-minded. They leave better and pissed off girls in their wake. However, a sincere minded man, who is educated as to the pit falls, can find sincere-minded women in these group settings. Anyone dating overseas should date a number of different ladies to increase his chances of finding someone that lights his fire.
  
  Most men who marry someone overseas meet their wives for the first time in-person - not from a writing. Most stories of married couples are that they just happened to have met while he was there - almost like a 'chance encounter'. I met my wife at a social, but many guys meet their lady in other ways; the lobby of the hotel, at a cafe, on the street. So here's the difficulty, how do you convince a guy to go when all you can tell him is that you'll probably just meet her because you are there? Yet it's the truth. According to the other tour guides I've interviewed (a total of four men), the common consesus was that 25% of men find someone they marry on their first trip - although they may not develop the relationship fully until after a second trip. Half of the men find women of interest they continued to correspond with after they get home and no one is certain what happens in those cases. 25% of men come back having not had a spark with any of the women they dated. How do you get someone to go if the current system only produces success in 25% of the cases and those are all from just showing up?
  
  The current system lends itself toward the outgoing man. It's hard to break through cultural barriers. It feels awkward to wonder what to say and do - or not do. There are no good ice-breakers. Therefore, the alpha male and the expressive personality type tend to be more successful because they will just act and not worry about these barriers. There needs to be more ways for men and women to become familiar with the other side, to break down the barriers, have fun, and create an atmosphere that fosters communication and connection that will increase the chances of success for men and women alike.

Comments?

I would personally love to do this, but i do not have the money. Besides, I am still in school...

IE: Money, lack thereof.

Spending $4K no matter how noble the cause is problematic and functions as a filter I say. Asking some average, everyday Joe to pony up even a deposit is cost prohibitive. Trust me, most of my life I've been the average guy, the 80% of the US workforce that makes about 30K a year (or less). I've barely have enough money to come up with a down-payment for a car, which the last time they only asked for tax and license, which was $1,300, that was two pay checks and my tax return.

The average dude just can't get it done. This also includes recent college grads, those even lucky enough to find a job post graduation. They have massive debt to pay back.

I think what Mark is doing is commendable because its basically AFA business model 2.0 from what I can tell. Remove the catalog of women, letter writing and force the men to take the trip instead. It removes the contenders from the pretenders for sure, but those longing to go just won't be able too.

I personally have made the career change so I can afford a family, not so much so I can spend thousands finding my wife, though I have done it already. I still say committing to a single mother with two children in Germany would have cost me much less than any other route out there. Coming from a mature economy she had property she could liquidate. She could backdoor the system and her son's are already US citzens.

Less complication, less mess, less money.

I'm still not sure if spending more to get a) younger b) childless is worth the cost and time involved. Mark mentions 10 months from the time he met Anna to her being here and married. It would have taken 6 months to get Tanja here, settle her son's into the local school system, find a house, sell her stuff. Or flip it around and I move to Germany, find a job locally, return to school if needed and import my car.

So let's review -

Getting Anna to Mark, maybe $10-11K, not including his previous trips to South America.

If I had just said "f**k it", $2K to give Tanja legal status, boys already are citizens. Selling her car, home and stuff could have paid for their plane tickets to the States and some of those I-485 fees.

If we're suppose to accept that most Younger FSU women are not established and even if they are, they don't make as much as there western counterparts, then I suppose for those that can truly afford this can the rest of us will have to look for a different path.

Having said this, by May/June I might find some work and might be able to go on Mark's next tour.

[Winston]

To be honest, most white American guys I know can't save money for some reason. It's like they have some instinct that makes them spend whatever they have right away, until they have no more spare cash. No matter how many times they regret it, they will still do it EVERYTIME! It's really weird. But it's true. So many white American guys seem unable to save or spend wisely. Even if they try to, they just can't do it.