Anyone tried South Korea recently?

[MrMan]

If both were to cut off trade, they would both face huge costs in finding new suppliers and in increased shipping costs. I hear you can see Japan from the beach in Pusan on a clear day. It wasn't clear the day I went there.

I was thinking more about products for which suppliers just wouldn't be able to find an alternative supplier in another country, not for a long time before another country develops the product.

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

It's very dicey. Koreans born and living in Japan are not considered "real or full koreans" by Koreans themselves. They consider those people as
"Japs" or 쪽빠리 instead of Koreans despite having Korean blood. I mean Korean Americans are also not considered as true Koreans either...

This is not so unusual I would say. Not typical only for Koreans. If you live long time outside or are even born and grown up away from your own native country, your feeling about your own ethnicity is declining.

I noticed this with myself too. It's about estrangement which takes place with such people in their mindset, me included. I am from Europe, native German speaker, I can confirm that I am the generation no.9 from Austria/with history proven back to 1620, but living among Japanese with my Japanese family in Japan since more than 40 years already, my life is not anymore like those of my countrymen in my own country.

No foreigner is living next to my home, only Japanese, I live now in a smaller city after my retirement. I speak in general Japanese with everybody next to me, my own two daughters and grandchildren cannot speak my native German language, I had to pass the exam for my technical certificate in Japanese etc. and I got really more critical about the life-style in Europe, no way for me to go back...
I would find myself in trouble if I did, even might be discriminated...as Europen life-style is not my way of life anymore.

I posted recently in another thread in this forum a link to a video about a black woman, who is from USA, her parents both of them are also black US citizens living in Japan. She was grown up in the Japanese society in a rural area, rejects any suggestion that she was felt ever been excluded in Japan, but mentioned that she felt really discriminated when living a few years in the States, as black people told her, she is not black enough, telling her she is different from black people...

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Koreans who are living in Korea and never been out of the country of course feel likely the same way... A native Korean is visiting Korea, but living in Japan all his life - speaking Japanese (always with some accent - LOL) better than Korean and using a Japanese name....so who are you?

The North and South are two hostile countries and the Korean war is not over yet! They just had a truce or armistice instead of real peace back in 1953. How do you expect citizens from both sides to talk to each other on their cell phone?

I remember the post-WWII situation and I was living only 20 km away from the iron curtain (the border between Western Europe and Soviet-controlled Eastern Europe) next to Hungary. During my military obligatory service I was for a while a border guard along the fences.
I can tell you that the situation was NEVER like what we see between North and South Korea.

Phone lines were soon operating between West and East, including directly to private homes. Western citizens could visit the Communist controlled countries. Some of them (for Austrian citizens) abolished even visa (Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia, Poland) and others issued short time visa (for Austrians very easy to enter Hungary with a 3-days permit and using your own car, you got the permit within half an hour even at the border).
And now even between Ukraine and Russia, despite the war and unable to meet each other, mobile phone connection is said to operate in general.

About Asia, phone lines are fully operating from Japan to Russia, despite both countries are not the best friends, and phone lines are also operate perfectly between Taiwan/Japan and China. Also personal visits to relative living on the other side of the border are not a problem.
Japanese citizens are visiting China visafree for 14 days, can you believe that....

Why is only North Korea reclusive like that? I don't understand this North Korean government.

The Taiwanese doesn't really like the Japanese because they were also colonized back in 1910.. The Japanese think Koreans as inferior and both countries are still fighting over a tiny island Dokdo or Takeshima. The Korean society hates the Japanese and they glee over Japan's "lost 30 years". How do you expect both of them to corporate? . Despite Japanese government paying 800 million dollar reparations to South korean government back in 1965, the Korean public still want to see Japan burn and the Japanese public are not fond of Koreans either!

Time is moving on, many elderly people are not with us anymore (I am also getting old now, but I was born after WWII).
Unfortunately the political situation in Far East is unpredictable and not stable.

Taiwan has a choice - to be with China, but it seems they don't really like that idea - or to co-operate with USA and also with Japan.
North and South Korea are divided - to such an extent hardly seen anywhere else
Japan still has not even a peace treaty with Russia....

Just waiting... there is nothing else what you could do as an ordinary citizen.

I really appreciate your insightful and detailed replies. I am enjoying the conversation with you so far. That's quite the personal history you got there, wow. If your born after World War 2, you must be like 70 to 75 years old. I am really curious, why did you choose Japan rather than South Korea or China? and do you ever go back to Europe for Vacation once in a while? Do you miss Austria?

[Yohan]

I really appreciate your insightful and detailed replies. I am enjoying the conversation with you so far. That's quite the personal history you got there, wow. If your born after World War 2, you must be like 70 to 75 years old. I am really curious, why did you choose Japan rather than South Korea or China? and do you ever go back to Europe for Vacation once in a while? Do you miss Austria?

Hi, yes, this is correct, I am now 70 years old.

Why to move out from Europe? Well, I do not want to blame anybody, but after WWII and postwar occupation by the Russians, people who survived that horror (bombings and later on looting, rapes etc) in the area where I was living as a child (small city, not so far from Vienna a bit outside where all the factories were bombed out), were broken and not normal humans anymore...simply said, during and after WWII a human life had no much value - I was not treated kindly as a child and I think I was only 10 years old or so and I said one day to myself that I will leave - for always, and this is what I did - and I never came back. I do not miss Austria or Europe in general.

I was always interested in travel, and in Europe I have been almost everywhere, later on also countries like Iran, India, I was always interested in foreign countries and Asian languages, I ended up in Malaysia for a while with a Chinese girl+all her family, but left them and moved on later to Japan. My first Asian language was not Japanese, but Malay. I moved later on to Japan...found easily some jobs.

China was not an open country at that time, out of question. Also I was not interested much into Taiwan and South Korea around 1980 was still anything else but a rich country. I had already many contacts with Japanese people and also married a Japanese woman and could speak and read quite a lot Japanese, but my Korean language knowledge is still poor even up to today. Korea was never under consieration for me for longstay anyway...

I like Korea because of its very good performers of classical music, and also Korean food and to see 'other people'.

If you live in Japan as a foreigner you have to get out of the country at least one time a year to see different people...otherwise it's getting boring. Again Korea was not the ideal destination for vacation and retirement and finally for our vacation/retirement as second home we decided for Thailand.

I never had any problem visiting South Korea, just as a tourist and I was friendly welcome everywhere, but I never had any intention to settle down, looking for a wife and to work in that country.

[Yohan]

If both were to cut off trade, they would both face huge costs in finding new suppliers and in increased shipping costs. I hear you can see Japan from the beach in Pusan on a clear day. It wasn't clear the day I went there.

I don't think you can see Japan Honshu Island, the largest island of Japan from a beach in Busan부산 - It's about 200 km -

I guess you mean the Japanese island of Tsushima 対馬, about 60 km from Busan? If you are on a hill in Busan, this is possible.

I have been in Nagato 長門市, Western side of Honshu, driving along the coastline to Shimonoseki下関市, 200 km from Busan and even on a very clear day on a hill, I saw nothing....



It is also possible from Taiwan, Yilan 宜蘭縣 to see Yonaguni Island 与那国町, which belongs to Japan and is about 110 km away.
Depends on the weather of course.

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

I really appreciate your insightful and detailed replies. I am enjoying the conversation with you so far. That's quite the personal history you got there, wow. If your born after World War 2, you must be like 70 to 75 years old. I am really curious, why did you choose Japan rather than South Korea or China? and do you ever go back to Europe for Vacation once in a while? Do you miss Austria?

Hi, yes, this is correct, I am now 70 years old.

Why to move out from Europe? Well, I do not want to blame anybody, but after WWII and postwar occupation by the Russians, people who survived that horror (bombings and later on looting, rapes etc) in the area where I was living as a child (small city, not so far from Vienna a bit outside where all the factories were bombed out), were broken and not normal humans anymore...simply said, during and after WWII a human life had no much value - I was not treated kindly as a child and I think I was only 10 years old or so and I said one day to myself that I will leave - for always, and this is what I did - and I never came back. I do not miss Austria or Europe in general.

I was always interested in travel, and in Europe I have been almost everywhere, later on also countries like Iran, India, I was always interested in foreign countries and Asian languages, I ended up in Malaysia for a while with a Chinese girl+all her family, but left them and moved on later to Japan. My first Asian language was not Japanese, but Malay. I moved later on to Japan...found easily some jobs.

China was not an open country at that time, out of question. Also I was not interested much into Taiwan and South Korea around 1980 was still anything else but a rich country. I had already many contacts with Japanese people and also married a Japanese woman and could speak and read quite a lot Japanese, but my Korean language knowledge is still poor even up to today. Korea was never under consieration for me for longstay anyway...

I like Korea because of its very good performers of classical music, and also Korean food and to see 'other people'.

If you live in Japan as a foreigner you have to get out of the country at least one time a year to see different people...otherwise it's getting boring. Again Korea was not the ideal destination for vacation and retirement and finally for our vacation/retirement as second home we decided for Thailand.

I never had any problem visiting South Korea, just as a tourist and I was friendly welcome everywhere, but I never had any intention to settle down, looking for a wife and to work in that country.

Whoa, I am only 30 years old. And yes, Japan was really booming back then in the 80's. People though Japan was going to overtake America as an economic superpower. Now I see why you chose to move there. South Korean in the 80's were under Military Junta and still developing.
It pales in comparison to Japan in the 80's. Many South Korean Businessmen went to Japan to learn about its technologies and get trained there.
They said Japan was like a futuristic city and they envy Japan's success.

You made a great choice of not marrying Korean women and having a job there. Because both of them totally sucks! Alles Scheisse.

South Korea is a burning Hellhole right now. Lowest birthrate on the entire planet, highest suicide rate among OCED, biggest elderly homeless, highest elderly suicide, limited number of good jobs, very little legal rights for foreigners, lowest happiness among OCED, Highest work hours among OCED, etc, etc.
Never live there. I got so much bad experience in South Korea because they discriminate Korean Americans and think of them as "black haired foreigner". Not fun. I wish them to perish in their burning hellhole of a country.

It's funny, I know another Austrian, Arnold Schwarzenegger, who said Austria had nothing after World War 2, so he went to America to pursue his dreams. There is a documentary about him on Youtube. Your story reminds me of his.

I mean do you still feel like a "Gaijin" in Japan? I know the Japanese don't really consider foreigners as Japanese even if they have assimilated.

In contrast to you, I am tired of my own country and culture. I live in America now, but I am tired of America also. I am interested in visiting Europe when I have the chance. .

[Cornfed]

It did seem that in South Korea they were at least creating nonsense make-work jobs for men. Are they still doing that?

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

@Cornfed
I don't know what you mean by nonsense make-work jobs. But Korean men do waste lot of time in the office. They have to leave when their supervisor chose to leave despite having no work I think like 7pm of 8pm. After that sometimes they have to attend mandatory dinner with the company boss or employees. They do surely waste lot of time. The dinner can last up to midnight or 1am to 2am. The Korean government tries to fix that by implementing 52hours a week policy.. but its not working. Korean female workers also waste lot of time surfing on the internet and looking for shopping their latest handbag or plastic surgery.

The added bonus is that the Korean employees gets to be abused by their bosses similar to Full Metal jacket style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHxf17y ... LanceBoyle

Lot of Koreans commit suicide related to work place violence and abuse. But it seems nobody gives a sh*t about that because employees are worth less than amphibian sh*t . And the pay is not that good anyway. Despite working lot of overtime. Lot of unpaid overtime and when the employee complain about the company or threaten to report to the labor department, the employer just tells him to f*ck off and the labor department doesn't even give a damn either.

[kangarunner]

It did seem that in South Korea they were at least creating nonsense make-work jobs for men. Are they still doing that?

I can only imagine what it was like for those nice, calm Korean people to be around someone like yourself.

Oh Mary !! Oh Martha !!
Oh Mary !! Oh Martha !!
Oh Mary !! Oh Martha !!

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

@kangarunner
Unless they are on Prozac.. Koreans are the temperamental bunch.

[Yohan]

I mean do you still feel like a "Gaijin" in Japan? I know the Japanese don't really consider foreigners as Japanese even if they have assimilated.
.....
In contrast to you, I am tired of my own country and culture. I live in America now, but I am tired of America also. I am interested in visiting Europe when I have the chance. .

I am a white man from Europe and there is no way mistaken me for a Japanese.
Of course, I am a 'gaijin', because I look totally different and there is no Western foreigner living in that area where I am.
People in general in my area are not accustomed to see foreigners.

However if you live in a certain place for a long time, people around you know you.
I am using since years the same shops for buying my daily needs, go to the same medical doctors, using the same car-service shop and motorcycle repair shop, the same restaurants, also using the same accounting office for tax and insurance, etc.

Unlike Japanese customers, (Japanese looking often very similar, especially now with facemasks) wherever I go and have been before, people recognize me immediately, this is often more an advantage than a disadvantage.

Of course, if I show up somewhere in Japan where I am unknown, people might be a bit cautious, but I can speak Japanese, I have a valid resident card, if traffic police is doing some checks, my driving licence is ok, my car has a valid inspection sticker, I do not drink alcohol - I show my documents and talk a little with them and a few minutes I continue....So what is the problem?

Living abroad, be tolerant and polite...especially with children... take it easy...there is no bad intention at all and might turn out even as a nice experience.
One time I passed by walking near a public elementary school and some children in a group were shouting 'gaijin' and I noticed the female young teacher felt a bit uncomfortable but I told her it's OK.
I said to these kids in Japanese 'is this true? where do you see a gaijin? I don't see one...where is this gaijin? Can you show me this 'gaijin?'
Their reaction was unexpected as they said to me, wait a moment and they pushed a girl from behind to me and she told me in Englishthat she is a Filipina.
Some low income Asian contract workers in Japan cannot pay for international expensive schools and send their children just to the public school, which is almost for free up to 12 years, and costs very little from 12 to 15 years old, even if the child cannot speak Japanese - why not?

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This is different with people from Korea, Taiwan, Mongolia, also people who are Brazil-Japanese. They might be mistaken for an ethnic Japanese by locals as they look like like a native and are also using Japanese names and only after talking to them you will notice that they are not native Japanese speakers.

During the last 2 or 3 decades, mixed people show up more and more, as I said, Japan is an importer of foreign women for marriage, and there are also some Western men like myself married to a Japanese woman and have children.

Our 2 daughters look really quite different from each other, but both of them never reported any problem, not in school, not later on as adults.
They also have many Japanese friends.

My older daughter looks really rather Japanese, she is holding Japanese citizenship, is a native Japanese speaker, married and lives in Tokyo und use a Japanese family name and a Japanese first name. In Tokyo there are many people around everywhere and you cannot know everybody and nowadays because of covid-19 using a facemask too. - She is a 'Japanese'..

My younger daughter looks totally different, rather a Western face, hair not so dark, living in a rural area, not far away from our home,
and everybody knows everybody in that little community.
She is also a Japanese citizen, native Japanese speaker and local people know she is 50/50 European/Japanese...but no problems at all.

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Finally the question, are all Japanese friendly towards foreigners? Not all of them are nice and there are also some rude Japanese - but if I compare how many Japanese were helpful to me and how few rude Japanese I met in my more than 40 years in Japan...it's really a tiny number, not worth to talk about them. I met a few intolerant Japanese too, but I just walk away facing such a rare situation..

I remember such a guy who had a motorcycle-shop - I went there after moving to Japan and ask him to order some parts for me...gave him a paper with the list - he said to me come back next week. Next week he told me he has forgotten to order them, come back next week, and when I came again he told me he lost my paper with the parts. - OK, I said nothing, went to another bike shop and have been a customer there for more than 30 years, bought parts and also 3 motorcycles from them, best service...

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

@Yohan
I am glad your enjoying your life in Japan. Sounds like you have it made. .

[MrMan]

I wonder if the South Korean plastic surgery trend makes women less pretty? It seemed like the average young woman was a little prettier than in the US there, and about as many really pretty girls. Maybe South Korean girls top out, usually around 9.5 or 9.7, and women of European descent can go higher? I don't know.

I remember there was a little bit of the plastic surgery stuff going on in the 1990's, or maybe we were talking about trends in Japan. An expat who'd spent a lot of time in Thailand did not like the plastic surgery because he said they try to change their eyes and what he thinks is so pretty about them is the almond shaped eyes.

So I am wondering if pretty girls have plastic surgery so they can all look about the same, like pop stars, or if it is just the homely girls who have surgery to deceive men and others into thinking that they are naturally good-looking.

Do they do the unnatural top-lip thing, where they make their top lips look so fat that they couldn't possible be natural?

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

I wonder if the South Korean plastic surgery trend makes women less pretty? It seemed like the average young woman was a little prettier than in the US there, and about as many really pretty girls. Maybe South Korean girls top out, usually around 9.5 or 9.7, and women of European descent can go higher? I don't know.

I remember there was a little bit of the plastic surgery stuff going on in the 1990's, or maybe we were talking about trends in Japan. An expat who'd spent a lot of time in Thailand did not like the plastic surgery because he said they try to change their eyes and what he thinks is so pretty about them is the almond shaped eyes.

So I am wondering if pretty girls have plastic surgery so they can all look about the same, like pop stars, or if it is just the homely girls who have surgery to deceive men and others into thinking that they are naturally good-looking.

Do they do the unnatural top-lip thing, where they make their top lips look so fat that they couldn't possible be natural?

Almost every girl in South Korea do plastic surgery because of combination of social pressure, inexpensive procedures, and even for getting a job.
People need to attach their photo on their resume in Korea unlike the U.S. Even the employers care what you look like. If you don't look like a certain K pop star or K film star, you will be at a disadvantage literally. If your a foreigner, you don't have to follow most of the BS that Native Koreans have to jump through. In job interviews Korean employers ask you about what does your family do for a living, family wealth, status, are you going to have a baby, and all the other personal questions that you are not allowed to ask in the U.S.

Nope I haven't seen any Korean girls inflating their lips.

[MrMan]

@Cornfed
I don't know what you mean by nonsense make-work jobs. But Korean men do waste lot of time in the office. They have to leave when their supervisor chose to leave despite having no work I think like 7pm of 8pm. After that sometimes they have to attend mandatory dinner with the company boss or employees. They do surely waste lot of time. The dinner can last up to midnight or 1am to 2am. The Korean government tries to fix that by implementing 52hours a week policy.. but its not working. Korean female workers also waste lot of time surfing on the internet and looking for shopping their latest handbag or plastic surgery.

The added bonus is that the Korean employees gets to be abused by their bosses similar to Full Metal jacket style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHxf17y ... LanceBoyle

I'd seen that clip before. I had to look up some of the garbage that drill sergeant was saying to know what it meant. If there were a drill sergeant saying that kind of stuff, hitting a man's private parts, I'd suspect he was a homosexual trying to groom soldiers or find gay partners. That's some pretty nasty talk.

I don't know if managers are that bad, typically, in South Korea. I think they are more into harmony there. But I did see a couple of very young soldiers on the streets, totally drunk, where one of them was pulling that drill sergeant type stuff yelling in the face of another soldier, then kicked his butt, literally. I hear if a soldier is slightly higher ranked than the other, the lower ranked soldier has to salute and obey. I didn't know what the two drunk soldiers were saying or I might have tried to intervene with a friendly greeting to distract the angry drunk soldier. I didn't have enough information to do that.

One of my fellow American teachers said Koreans worked long hours, but they didn't work that hard, just stayed around the office a long time, whereas Americans put in their time, worked more intensely, then went home. That was one thing I didn't like about what I knew of Korean culture-- excessively long work hours. Of course, I did work at a company, on salary, where long hours was the norm-- in the office at 7:30 AM and people stayed late, so while you could technically leave at 5, you kind of needed to stay around until 6 or later to fit in and because work piled up if you didn't. And we had to keep track of what we were doing all the time in a log and divide how we spent our hours at the end of the month. That was in Indonesia, but working for an English company.

[Yohan]

...I remember there was a little bit of the plastic surgery stuff going on in the 1990's, or maybe we were talking about trends in Japan. An expat who'd spent a lot of time in Thailand did not like the plastic surgery because he said they try to change their eyes and what he thinks is so pretty about them is the almond shaped eyes.

So I am wondering if pretty girls have plastic surgery so they can all look about the same, like pop stars, or if it is just the homely girls who have surgery to deceive men and others into thinking that they are naturally good-looking.

Do they do the unnatural top-lip thing, where they make their top lips look so fat that they couldn't possible be natural?

The trend to plastic surgery - the majority are women - is about the same in Japan and Korea. Countless women show up in such medical clinics with their beauty problems. A big business.

Requests are however with some limits only, as people with tattoos, piercings, strange lips etc. are not welcome by society in general - such people might be sometimes considered as related to organized crime members and are refused entrance to hotels, restaurants, public bath etc...

I am against such crazy medical treatments. Better use your money for something else. Nobody in my family was ever interested in such treatment.

Many Japanese/Korean young people who are into such stuff prefer painted tattoos which color will disappear within a few weeks, or piercings which can be removed easily. Apply for a job - you show up like a punk and you are out before you even enter the office to introduce yourself.
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However often beauty surgery makes indeed sense, for example to fix the position of ears, nose and teeth - also dermatology to remove and treat skin related issues can help to look better. Knee surgery is quite common to bring both legs back to a straight position again.