Philosophy of Suicide

[Winston]

Some of you here have been suicidal too. What do you guys think? Is suicide right or wrong or is it situational? Does God approve of it or is it up to the individual?

[Yohan]

In Japan before WWII suicide was considered as honourable. Also to be requested by a friend or family member to assist with suicide was permitted and it was a honour to assist a suicidial person to end his life.

In general men committing suicide were often successful as they were chosen rather brutal ways how to do it, like with hanging or being assisted by somebody with a sword...

Women who tried to commit suicide often fail, using poison or medicine like sleeping pills or walking into the sea drinking sea water....

This mindset - that suicide is acceptable in Japan -did not change up to today, however the Japanese government was forced under US administration to change its acceptance and tolerance about suicide and tries now to prevent it,

The most famous place for suicide in Japan is the forest of Aokigahara.
A serious documentary about suicide in Aokigahara forest can be found here, a Japanese geologist guides you through the forest (with English subtitles).

[WilliamSmith]

I've had suicidal ideation on and off for years, possibly since high school.

@Pixel--Dude
NO!! Don't do it! This took me by surprise when I saw some reference to it in the shoutbox...
You're not still considering it, are you?

I read a lot of people who tried it and ended up in an NDE badly regretting it, but those are only the ones who came back...

Good people always have way more value to other people in their lives than they think, even if our brain/hormonal chemistry gives us an ass-kicking and leads to depressive/negative/suicidal inclinations temporarily. (A lot of times this is exacerbated dramatically by so-called "meds," where tons of suicide cases that take friends and relatives by total surprise and shock happen after some meds regimen has been switched up.)

[WilliamSmith]

Good contribution! I've looked into Aokigahara forest, or Suicide Forest. I always thought Japanese culture must be completely horrible in order to have a forest dedicated to suicide. In my opinion it speaks volumes about the kind of society in which we live that people feel so alienated and trapped in their lives that suicide is the only viable solution to their issues.

I think there is something like 30 suicides a year at Aokigahara forest. I read that in 2003 there were over hundred bodies found in the forest who had committed suicide. Apparently the Japanese authorities stopped publicising data on the number of suicides here in 2011.

@Yohan, you've lived in Japan for a while now, right? Do you notice anything strange about the culture there for such a high number of suicides? There are many people who kill themselves globally for a number of reasons, but few places have a forest or certain area dedicated to suicide other than Japan. What do you think?

@Pixel--Dude
I think Japan's a wonderful fascinating nation in all kinds of ways (natural geographic beauty, traditional cultural beauty, friendly polite people for the most part-- though even if not, much less likely to murder you than the wonderful people in my personal choices of expat zones + the theoretic few drunk Japanese saruman or hoodlums or something who might attack you will probably be easier to beat, LOL), but they admittedly have a lot of pathologies with weird cultural dynamics of "shaming" and intense social and cultural conformity (despite being so zany in other ways).
Lots of emotionally stunted people starved for affection there, problems with bullying, and other stuff like that.
It breaks some people in that culture psychologically.
And like he said, they have a fairly longstanding tradition of ritual suicide feeding into those inclinations, so many go to this dramatic ritualistic haunted forest on the flank of Mount Fuji... I think it's bad.
That forest is badly haunted, which is nor surprise. Also, being on the flank of Mt Fuji, which is one of those big volcanic peaks (like Mt Shasta in California), the area is notorious for paranormal activity too.

Interestingly enough, Japan still didn't rank on the top 10 list of suicide rates by country (if this data is even accurate, not sure):
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

[galii]

Chatgpt:

There have been several philosophers who have taken a pro-suicide or pro-self-delete position in their philosophical writings. One of the most famous examples is the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus, who believed that suicide was an acceptable option for those who were facing unbearable suffering. He argued that death was not to be feared and that suicide was a way to escape the pain and distress of life.

In the 19th century, the Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard wrote about the idea of "the knight of faith," who has the courage to choose death over life in order to affirm their beliefs. Similarly, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche wrote about the concept of "the eternal recurrence," which holds that life is a cycle of repeated experiences and that suicide is a way to escape this cycle.

For example, the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre wrote about the concept of "radical freedom," which gives individuals the power to choose their own destiny, including the choice to end their own life. Similarly, the French existentialist philosopher Albert Camus wrote about the idea of "the absurd," the belief that life is fundamentally meaningless and that the only response to this meaningless is to reject it through suicide.

The British philosopher Philippa Foot also wrote about the morality of suicide, arguing that there are some circumstances where suicide may be a morally acceptable choice. Similarly, the American philosopher Susan Wolf has written about the idea of "moral saints," individuals who are able to maintain a high level of moral integrity in the face of extreme suffering, and who might choose to end their own life as a way of preserving their moral principles.

[galii]

Chatgpt:

There have been several philosophers who have taken a pro-suicide or pro-self-delete position in their philosophical writings. One of the most famous examples is the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus, who believed that suicide was an acceptable option for those who were facing unbearable suffering. He argued that death was not to be feared and that suicide was a way to escape the pain and distress of life.

In the 19th century, the Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard wrote about the idea of "the knight of faith," who has the courage to choose death over life in order to affirm their beliefs. Similarly, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche wrote about the concept of "the eternal recurrence," which holds that life is a cycle of repeated experiences and that suicide is a way to escape this cycle.

For example, the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre wrote about the concept of "radical freedom," which gives individuals the power to choose their own destiny, including the choice to end their own life. Similarly, the French existentialist philosopher Albert Camus wrote about the idea of "the absurd," the belief that life is fundamentally meaningless and that the only response to this meaningless is to reject it through suicide.

The British philosopher Philippa Foot also wrote about the morality of suicide, arguing that there are some circumstances where suicide may be a morally acceptable choice. Similarly, the American philosopher Susan Wolf has written about the idea of "moral saints," individuals who are able to maintain a high level of moral integrity in the face of extreme suffering, and who might choose to end their own life as a way of preserving their moral principles.

Why are you posting stuff generated by a bot?

Couple reasons: Because it is interesting and noteworthy to the discussion plus my english writing skills are getting worse so it would take me 2 days to write it myself.

[galii]

Chatgpt:

There have been several philosophers who have taken a pro-suicide or pro-self-delete position in their philosophical writings. One of the most famous examples is the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus, who believed that suicide was an acceptable option for those who were facing unbearable suffering. He argued that death was not to be feared and that suicide was a way to escape the pain and distress of life.

In the 19th century, the Danish philosopher Søren Kierkegaard wrote about the idea of "the knight of faith," who has the courage to choose death over life in order to affirm their beliefs. Similarly, the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche wrote about the concept of "the eternal recurrence," which holds that life is a cycle of repeated experiences and that suicide is a way to escape this cycle.

For example, the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre wrote about the concept of "radical freedom," which gives individuals the power to choose their own destiny, including the choice to end their own life. Similarly, the French existentialist philosopher Albert Camus wrote about the idea of "the absurd," the belief that life is fundamentally meaningless and that the only response to this meaningless is to reject it through suicide.

The British philosopher Philippa Foot also wrote about the morality of suicide, arguing that there are some circumstances where suicide may be a morally acceptable choice. Similarly, the American philosopher Susan Wolf has written about the idea of "moral saints," individuals who are able to maintain a high level of moral integrity in the face of extreme suffering, and who might choose to end their own life as a way of preserving their moral principles.

Why are you posting stuff generated by a bot?

Couple reasons: Because it is interesting and noteworthy to the discussion plus my english writing skills are getting worse so it would take me 2 days to write it myself.

Why are your English skills declining? The other point is valid. There are a lot of philosophers who condone suicide. At least as many as there are who are opposed to it.

English is my third language. When I was in the Philippines I had the environment to train it but now I don't have it.

Actually I think most philosophers were against suicide. I am an Epicurean he is on top of the list who has no problem with it.

[WilliamSmith]

I advocate for a much simpler life and a society which endorses freedom and individuality. I want a society which is better for everyone where human connection is more authentic than it is today, relationships are actually based on love and not any alterior motives like financial gain, for example. I plan on making a thread about this at a later time.

Not sure if this particular twist would appeal to you or not, but we should compare notes on the forum at least about the so-called "sea gypsy" lifestyle. (Living aboard a boat and living mostly at anchor for $0 in rents. Boats take a lot of maintenance, and one obviously needs to love the sea and stay on top of weather hazards and port regulations and so on, but once no one else stuck on land is depending on me for support I'm considering going all-in on this lifestyle.)

But yeah, don't worry. I am okay.

I am very glad to hear that!

[WilliamSmith]

Reminder to all friends: No suicides allowed! Thanks.

But after this macabre subject came up last night I looked more at the data here
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country


The stats surprised me:

Some of this data is probably a bit suspect, because I know very well a lot of the authorities in 3rd world countries flat-out don't give a !@#$ about crime and won't even do anything but try to extort bribe $$$ even from victims of major crimes who try to report what happened........ so I have my doubts whether some of the 3rd world suicide rates are as low as they say....

But FYI / for what it's worth:

In 2019, the ten countries with the highest suicide rates (number of suicides per 100k) were:

Lesotho - 72.4
Guyana - 40.3
Eswatini - 29.4
South Korea - 28.6
Kiribati - 28.3
Federated States of Micronesia - 28.2
Lithuania - 26.1
Suriname - 25.4
Russia - 25.1
South Africa - 23.5

The world's lowest suicide rates are in the following countries:

Antigua and Barbuda - 0.4
Barbados - 0.6
Grenada - 0.7
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines - 1.0
Sao Tome and Principe - 1.5
Jordan - 1.6
Syria - 2.0
Venezuela - 2.1
Honduras - 2.1
Philippines - 2.2

I didn't realize that was the case, but interesting to see a lot of my #1 top choices for Caribbean island nations on the lowest suicide rate list.

*** Some macabre points from the comments:

On South Korea:
(FYI @Natural_Born_Cynic )

South Korea is the noteworthy high-suicide outlier for East Asia: I have heard they have taken over Japan and the USSA's role as the worst workaholics, and neither Japan or the USSA comes close to SK's suicide rate.

Additionally, many choose to jump off a bridge. In Seoul, the Mapo Bridge has earned the nickname "The Bridge of Death" or "Suicide Bridge" because of how many people jump off it.

FYI @Pixel--dude and @Outcast9428 (the latter because he and I are both optimistic for a nationalist Japan's future):

Suicide in Japan
Japan's total numbers place it significantly outside the top 10, but suicide is nonetheless a serious concern there. Suicide is the leading cause of death in men between the ages of 20-44 and women between the ages of 15-34.

[ That is obviously not a good sign, but I'd guess it's partly because they don't murder each other as much there as in some of the places that are dearer to my own heart. Beautiful Jamaica, for example, has sometimes had "interpersonal violence" ranking in the top 5 leading causes of death on the stat sites I glanced at, even though NCDs and strokes and so on were ranked much higher for the total population in all age bands... ]

Here @Outcast9428 can accuse me of trying to "subvert the right" by pointing out Japanese hodlers who go through a divorce or else lose their jobs and are no longer able to provide per their cultural standards often spike their likelihood of committing suicide as a result:

Japanese men are twice as likely to commit suicide as their female counterparts, particularly after a divorce. Of particular concern is suicide among men who have recently lost their jobs and are no longer able to provide for their families. People are expected to stay married to a single person and stay on a single job for their entire life, and the pressure of this expectation can make a divorce or job loss feel like a failure. Aokigahara Forest, at the base of Japan's Mount Fuji, is a hotspot for suicides, as hundreds of people go there each year to end their lives. Police regularly patrol the area for suicide victims and survivors.

My thoughts:
USSA and Japan are reasonably close matches on suicide rates.
(USSA is a collapsing cesspool subverted to the core where the people have nothing in common and aren't a "nation" in any meaningful sense of the word, so no shock there's a fair amt of suicide and high depression rates also facilitated by meds, toxic food, opiate epidemics pushed by the likes of Sacklers and other jew oligarchs, etc.)
Japan's a much more potentially healthy nation, but definitely do have their "pathologies," since otherwise they wouldn't come close to the USSA's suicide and depression rates.

Then there's China... Unlike many, I actually love the Chinese, but am aware of some of its problems so was interested to read this:

Suicide in China
In China, suicide is the fifth leading cause of death and accounts for over one-quarter of suicides worldwide. In contrast with many Western countries, in which men are more likely to commit suicide, most suicide victims in China are women. China's economic boom has led to greater independence for women, who are now much more able to get divorced as a means of dealing with domestic violence. However, the strain of divorce means that they must work long hours while raising their children, often without family support that the culture has traditionally relied on in the past.

When women show the strain of their stressful lives and are admitted to a hospital for psychiatric care, they are likely to be discharged much sooner than their male counterparts. They feel that they need to return to their jobs and families as quickly as possible, even if they are not ready to do so. Additionally, many insurances do not cover hospital stays in cases of attempted suicide. These strains have exacerbated suicide among Chinese women. People in rural parts of China are five times more likely to commit suicide than people in cities. This notion may be attributed to a lack of mental healthcare, the stigma associated with mental illnesses (such as schizophrenia), poverty, and poor education. However, exact statistics are hard to come by because the Chinese government has carried out few to no epidemiological studies on suicide. Most suicide attempts in China are carried out with a pesticide or other poison.

[galii]

Reminder to all friends: No suicides allowed! Thanks.

But after this macabre subject came up last night I looked more at the data here
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country


The stats surprised me:

Some of this data is probably a bit suspect, because I know very well a lot of the authorities in 3rd world countries flat-out don't give a !@#$ about crime and won't even do anything but try to extort bribe $$$ even from victims of major crimes who try to report what happened........ so I have my doubts whether some of the 3rd world suicide rates are as low as they say....

But FYI / for what it's worth:

In 2019, the ten countries with the highest suicide rates (number of suicides per 100k) were:

Lesotho - 72.4
Guyana - 40.3
Eswatini - 29.4
South Korea - 28.6
Kiribati - 28.3
Federated States of Micronesia - 28.2
Lithuania - 26.1
Suriname - 25.4
Russia - 25.1
South Africa - 23.5

The world's lowest suicide rates are in the following countries:

Antigua and Barbuda - 0.4
Barbados - 0.6
Grenada - 0.7
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines - 1.0
Sao Tome and Principe - 1.5
Jordan - 1.6
Syria - 2.0
Venezuela - 2.1
Honduras - 2.1
Philippines - 2.2

I didn't realize that was the case, but interesting to see a lot of my #1 top choices for Caribbean island nations on the lowest suicide rate list.

*** Some macabre points from the comments:

On South Korea:
(FYI @Natural_Born_Cynic )

South Korea is the noteworthy high-suicide outlier for East Asia: I have heard they have taken over Japan and the USSA's role as the worst workaholics, and neither Japan or the USSA comes close to SK's suicide rate.

Additionally, many choose to jump off a bridge. In Seoul, the Mapo Bridge has earned the nickname "The Bridge of Death" or "Suicide Bridge" because of how many people jump off it.

FYI @Pixel--dude and @Outcast9428 (the latter because he and I are both optimistic for a nationalist Japan's future):

Suicide in Japan
Japan's total numbers place it significantly outside the top 10, but suicide is nonetheless a serious concern there. Suicide is the leading cause of death in men between the ages of 20-44 and women between the ages of 15-34.

[ That is obviously not a good sign, but I'd guess it's partly because they don't murder each other as much there as in some of the places that are dearer to my own heart. Beautiful Jamaica, for example, has sometimes had "interpersonal violence" ranking in the top 5 leading causes of death on the stat sites I glanced at, even though NCDs and strokes and so on were ranked much higher for the total population in all age bands... ]

Here @Outcast9428 can accuse me of trying to "subvert the right" by pointing out Japanese hodlers who go through a divorce or else lose their jobs and are no longer able to provide per their cultural standards often spike their likelihood of committing suicide as a result:

Japanese men are twice as likely to commit suicide as their female counterparts, particularly after a divorce. Of particular concern is suicide among men who have recently lost their jobs and are no longer able to provide for their families. People are expected to stay married to a single person and stay on a single job for their entire life, and the pressure of this expectation can make a divorce or job loss feel like a failure. Aokigahara Forest, at the base of Japan's Mount Fuji, is a hotspot for suicides, as hundreds of people go there each year to end their lives. Police regularly patrol the area for suicide victims and survivors.

My thoughts:
USSA and Japan are reasonably close matches on suicide rates.
(USSA is a collapsing cesspool subverted to the core where the people have nothing in common and aren't a "nation" in any meaningful sense of the word, so no shock there's a fair amt of suicide and high depression rates also facilitated by meds, toxic food, opiate epidemics pushed by the likes of Sacklers and other jew oligarchs, etc.)
Japan's a much more potentially healthy nation, but definitely do have their "pathologies," since otherwise they wouldn't come close to the USSA's suicide and depression rates.

Then there's China... Unlike many, I actually love the Chinese, but am aware of some of its problems so was interested to read this:

Suicide in China
In China, suicide is the fifth leading cause of death and accounts for over one-quarter of suicides worldwide. In contrast with many Western countries, in which men are more likely to commit suicide, most suicide victims in China are women. China's economic boom has led to greater independence for women, who are now much more able to get divorced as a means of dealing with domestic violence. However, the strain of divorce means that they must work long hours while raising their children, often without family support that the culture has traditionally relied on in the past.

When women show the strain of their stressful lives and are admitted to a hospital for psychiatric care, they are likely to be discharged much sooner than their male counterparts. They feel that they need to return to their jobs and families as quickly as possible, even if they are not ready to do so. Additionally, many insurances do not cover hospital stays in cases of attempted suicide. These strains have exacerbated suicide among Chinese women. People in rural parts of China are five times more likely to commit suicide than people in cities. This notion may be attributed to a lack of mental healthcare, the stigma associated with mental illnesses (such as schizophrenia), poverty, and poor education. However, exact statistics are hard to come by because the Chinese government has carried out few to no epidemiological studies on suicide. Most suicide attempts in China are carried out with a pesticide or other poison.

I guess for western countries at least it may be partly because they are in a very competetive environment. In other countries there is less competition so even losers get attention. People here who talk about greatness and machismo should take that in account. Religion is also an important thing. Some people can not commit suicide because of religion. For example older guys who are in pain can not do it. So it is sometimes good to be able to self delete.

Uruguay seems to be interesting. The male rate is 34. This is quite high.

From Reddit a guy from Uruguay:
'We are very secular, the main philosophy is existentialism, life is what you make of it. When people get older, stop working, if they are not seen by their families they become isolated, they feel useless, a burden, and so decide to kill themselves, rather than continuing a life of meaningless suffering. The majority of suicides are men over 65 by hanging.'

[Natural_Born_Cynic]

On South Korea:
(FYI @Natural_Born_Cynic )

South Korea is the noteworthy high-suicide outlier for East Asia: I have heard they have taken over Japan and the USSA's role as the worst workaholics, and neither Japan or the USSA comes close to SK's suicide rate.

Additionally, many choose to jump off a bridge. In Seoul, the Mapo Bridge has earned the nickname "The Bridge of Death" or "Suicide Bridge" because of how many people jump off it.

Yep. South Korea is suicide nation. Even the former president, Roh Mu Hyun, has committed suicide and various other high profile people committed suicide. Elderly suicide is also prevalent because there is no one to take care of them. Children and teenagers also commit suicide by jumping off apartment buildings. Korea is a country that is burning inside and out. Hundreds of thousands of Koreans are escaping to other countries. There are mass of Koreans escaping to Japan to find work! In contrast, Japan needs lot of IT people and others because of manpower shortage, so Koreans come into Japan to work.

[Tsar]

https://www.rt.com/news/571320-sucide-rise-us-cdc/

It's not surprising that year after year, the US suicide rate increases.

Everything in the United States gets worse every single year.

[Tsar]

Here's a map of suicide rates.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... icide_rate

[MrMan]

Here's a map of suicide rates.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... icide_rate

Greenland has a high rate of suicides out of 100,000, but there are less than 57,000 people there, so if one person commits suicide, they go up into the top category.

[Yohan]

Good contribution! I've looked into Aokigahara forest, or Suicide Forest. I always thought Japanese culture must be completely horrible in order to have a forest dedicated to suicide. In my opinion it speaks volumes about the kind of society in which we live that people feel so alienated and trapped in their lives that suicide is the only viable solution to their issues.

I think there is something like 30 suicides a year at Aokigahara forest. I read that in 2003 there were over hundred bodies found in the forest who had committed suicide. Apparently the Japanese authorities stopped publicising data on the number of suicides here in 2011.

@Yohan, you've lived in Japan for a while now, right? Do you notice anything strange about the culture there for such a high number of suicides? There are many people who kill themselves globally for a number of reasons, but few places have a forest or certain area dedicated to suicide other than Japan. What do you think?

@Pixel--Dude

First of all, Japan is not the leading nation regarding suicide. Worldwide statistics are not clear and vary, but often put Japan around #30 or so.
I don't know about a suicide forest in other countries, but there are worldwide preferred suicide spots, like bridges, high rise buildings etc.

Aokigahara is indeed a very special forest in Japan, it is located next to Mount Fuji and a part of it is located on the soil of the former volcanic eruption of this now not active vulcano. Mt. Fuji has strong religious meaning for the Japanese Shinto religion and around that area there are many Shinto Shrines and also Buddhist temples.

There are various horror stories, some of them several hundreds of years old, about ghosts walking around, as their human body could not get a proper funeral and these ghosts invite visitors to commit suicide or even attack and kill them etc.

The hardened lava of a part of Aokigahara forest is metallic and magnetic. This means when you are going there using a compass it will show you a wrong direction, a mobile phone or GPS near to ground, when sitting down for example, might not work - and the forest is very dense and you see only green and many people got lost walking in a circle for some hours to find out again.

Many Japanese people since centuries had the wish to die near to Mt. Fuji, and suicide and assistance to suicide are not really seen as something bad or wrong in Japanese society.

About 15 years ago the local administration of this province decided to do something to discourage people to commit suicide in this forest, but to close this forest to the public was not an option.

A parking area next to the entrance to this forest was created, connected to electricity, street lights, landline phone with emergency call numbers, vending machines, restrooms etc. and from there through the forest a hiking path was constructed - off limit for private cars - but wide enough for service cars to enter. Some maps, information, also Buddhist scripts about the value of life etc. are now everywhere and as long as you stay with this hiking path you cannot miss your way. Other areas were declared as off-limit, marked with fences and ropes and forest rangers were searching the entire forest, cleaning it up to make it less dense and of course they removed everything they found which was related to suicide, like human bones, skulls, ropes, messages and items of these persons who killed themselves.

Activities related to this forest will not be longer published. However every year it is said, but not confirmed, about 70 people still commit suicide in Aokigahara. During the first clean-up the remains of more than 500 people were found.

Now many people visit this forest just for hiking around and not for suicide. Some are looking for adventures and walking around even during night, looking for ghosts - but there are no ghosts there....LOL

Aokigahara is not so silent and not so remote anymore and can approached easily by car. - If people are found to enter off-limit areas and going into hiding in the forest, police has the right to consider it as trespassing and to remove them immediately for questioning.

It looks now like that...