Problems with TMM (traditional monogamous marriage) -- not an anti-TMM thread, FYI :)

[WilliamSmith]

1st and foremost:
I'm not the enemy of traditional monogamous marriage (TMM), so this thread is just to talk about its actual viability, address some of the obvious problems some of us see, and yet maybe clarify how TMM could (theoretically) be made to work...
(And in line with the HA theme, maybe we can talk about which countries are actually conducive to it working, for those who think it's the way to go....)

Like I mentioned, I am not the enemy of TMM:
I am personally even more dependent on "friends-with-benefits" than I am on alcohol (LOL), but I've also earned my stripes over the years in valiantly resisting offers to get in the sack with some of my friends' girlfriends who were propositioning me, and never messed with peoples' wives either (which I think is morally wrong, even though I have never seen anything to convince me that TMM tends to actually work).

I personally think the value in TMM isn't in the thing itself, but in having a positive male father figure and role model (as well as a positive mother) around for the benefit of children.

However, my honest objective take (after watching damn near everyone else's marriages I've ever seen fail, whether it takes 6 months, 1-2 years, or decades) has given me some serious doubts about whether TMM is supposedly that great a foundational pillar of healthy relationships....

Some of the tradcon squealers are always telling us that FWB relationships (friends with benefits) are supposedly "degenerate."
They may have a point when it comes to the global flood of jew porno conglomerates and promotion of every imaginable obscenity, and promotion of "hookup culture" (which isn't quite as bad as the porn culture, but obviously shares a lot in common with heavy drinking culture where it's not fully healthy either). But I really can't agree when it comes to saying just basic "wholesome" womanizing is supposedly so horrible...

Also, if they're rational and knowledgeable enough to realize that almost no one will actually be content with ACTUAL monogamous TMM, then they completely undermine and blow apart their own alleged moral high-ground by also advocating for institutionalized prostitution (which Outcast9428 does), as though it's supposedly better to have the bullshit dysfunctional TMM (which in reality satisfies almost no one) enshrined as some foundational pillar of a moral society, while someone else's daughter is penned up in a brothel to serve their physical sexual needs.
Obviously that is actual "degeneracy," so I see no merit in the argument that guys like me or @Lucas88 who like getting it on with a lot of unmarried women who actually like us are supposedly committing some moral evil, and undermining healthy traditional societies and family structures.

Anyway, there's a late-night 1st try on why I think FWB is fine. Now back to TMM:

Let's quote Caleb Jones here, he wrote a pretty good book with mostly squares up with my own observations and observing and reading about widespread rates of martial failure.

@Outcast9428 basically suggested I was just making stuff up out of thin air when I mentioned seeing high statistical rates of long term hodler relationships failing. If I was mistaken, anyone who wants to post something proving that would be more than welcome...
But here's an example of where I'm seeing people throwing around statistical figures on success vs failure rates of TMM, which squares with my lifelong observation that almost all TMM either fails even after decades, or else becomes a rather weird unpalatable co-dependency situation between two mostly dissatisfied people. (Hodlers who get into those multi-decade co-dependency situations also sometimes seem to have disturbing psychological elements where one or the other overly dominates the relationship, but I don't even want to go there, LOL. Just the overt failure of most standard marriages is a good enough topic to start with.)


EDIT:
By the way just in case @Outcast9428 thought I was trying to spread subversively lies again (which he also just accused me of doing in another thread too, after I pointed out that lots of Japanese married people cheat on each other):
When I mentioned "divorce rates" I was always thinking of the percentage of married people who then get divorced.

In other words, what is listed here under "Percent" (as opposed to "crude rate"):
https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki/Divorce_demography

So I was thinking of what they've termed the "Divorce-to-marriage ratio."
(I don't actually get why they'd look at a rate relative to the total population, including all the people who don't even try to get married to begin with... is it obvious? Here's your chance to school me about it and keep me honest if anyone actually thinks I'm hatching some devious, dishonest and deceptive plot to misrepresent the actual facts / stats / trends...)

Anyway, I am sure that was what Jones was talking about in citing 70+% of marriages ending too.
Some of the big stat sites I noticed had bizarrely low looking rates, but the reason was that they were citing # of divorces relative to the entire population.

Here's Jones on the subject:

Traditional Monogamous Marriage (TMM)

The traditional monogamous marriage, or TMM, is what normal people do. It’s when a man and a woman promise and expect sexual monogamy forever to and from the other, which, of course, is almost never possible.

They completely combine their entire finances and get a legal procedure done where the government will tell them how to divvy up their money and their children when they get divorced. Violation of this results in going to jail.

I say when they get divorced instead of if they get divorced because the real divorce rate for TMM, among people who actually get legally married, is now over approximately 76% across the board in the Western world; in many regions, it’s even higher than this. Moreover, this divorce rate is rising. In ten years, that 76% figure will be much higher.

Even people in TMMs who don’t get divorced usually experience cheating in the marriage (around 70-80% of long-term marriages) since human beings are pair-bonding creatures but were never designed to be long-term sexually monogamous creatures.
Pair-bonding is something humans enjoy, but sexual monogamy is something men and women like to do for a while, not forever.

Needless to say, TMM is a terrible idea in the modern era. It’s only for people who are either very ignorant and naive or for those who don’t mind chaos and drama as long as it happens later. It’s not for you.

[Kalinago]

I do NOT want to sound like mrman or Outcast9428,but I do not think this is a issue in societies that follow coherent guidelines in line with human nature.

Outside of some small denominations of christians,hindus and jews,most non-muslim societies allow their women to be sluts.They don't refuse to marry unchaste women.

if men in US overnight stuck to the resolution to never marry a unchaste woman,that is a fornicatress that isn't sincere in her repentance,women would change REAL quick.

they do not have a system in place where sex is obligatory on a atleast weekly basis between spouses,where women and men are seperated in schools,work areas and social situations which would prevent adultery.

Basically,'White sharia'is the only solution.

Women are deficient in intellect and character generally,and we need legal and social safeguards to maintain the function of that gender and society.

We also need proper religion to install a character in them,and to make virtuous women.

[fschmidt]

I agree, traditional monogamous marriage doesn't work in modern culture. But then nothing good works in modern culture because modern culture is pure evil. For good things to work, including traditional monogamous marriage, one must reject modern culture. Only those who reject modern culture can have a stable marriage. This includes traditional Anabaptists, Orthodox Jews, and religious Muslims. I bet the divorce rate in these groups is quite low.

Modern culture discourages stable marriages in every way possible. For contrast, consider the rules of the Old Testament. Adultery (sex between a married woman and a man other than her husband) results in death for both people. If a man has sex with a single (non-prostitute) woman, then they are required to marry and the man cannot divorce. Prostitution is encouraged as an alternative to adultery. If a woman misrepresents her virginity, then she is killed. Women are not supported by the government. In such a system, marriage would generally be stable. And sluts would be rare.