Leaving the West and Moving to Ukraine

[slavicreaver]

Hi guys,

I'm a British guy about to hit his 60s. I found this forum through some cross posts. It seems to be filled with losers, crackpots, oddballs and other misfits, but I'm glad to be here. As Winston has asked in another post - have you ever found another forum where you're able to freely discuss the kinds of things that are discussed here? My answer would have to be no, and I've been on a few private forums over the years.

Anyway, I'm leaving the West to move to the Ukraine early next year - and I've never ever been there in my life. I'm just going to buy a plane ticket, land and apply for a residence permit if I can. If I can't get that, then I'll just have to rely on 90 days every 180 and I'll spend the rest of the year elsewhere.

In preparation, I've been learning Russian for about a year. I've got money saved up and my work is location-independent. I don't know a single soul there so I'm just going to wing it. I'm going to start language exchange online before I go, so hopefully I might make a friend or two that way and try to join a group for social activities that interest me when I get there.

Of course, the women are a big part of the Ukrainian equation and I definitely plan on partaking. I'm not really a patron of ladies of the night but as you get old, things change, including one's perspective and beliefs. Once you hit your mid-50s (earlier for some lucky guys) , the penny starts to drop and its time to ditch as much of the bullshit in your head as possible, mostly put there by society. I have some experience and some success with pick up but it's the younger girls that are the real prize and they get harder and harder to snag as time goes by, so I'm considering the 'arrangements' option.

My reasons for leaving are;
1. the women, obviously
2. a lifestyle upgrade - my cost of living will go down by at least 50% and I'm going to use the savings to live it up a little
3. an adventure - I've lived abroad before but always in English-speaking countries. I want to see what the world looks likes when you're in a new environment, with new people expressing themselves in an alien tongue.
4. freedom - we are regulated to almost death here
5. and of course, the women again.

So, if you guys have any tips, comments, questions, feel free...

Reaver

[Awaki]

Ukraine will give you good experiences. It's a good country to adventure in. I spent a year there teaching English. While there, both my roommates flew out of the country because they were mugged. Now for me, I kept my head on straight and didn't run into problems. Except for when I ended up in the Odessa Police Department for having to beat up a Russian guy. But that's a different story. Just know, the online things are scams for the most part, it's a hard life for a lot of the Ukrainians--thus alcohol problems. And so some violence and scams. But, I think the adventures, the nice food and cool bars, and yeah, the freedom, make it a good choice. Watch for scams and look for expats you get along with.

[Shemp]

I found this forum through some cross posts. It seems to be filled with losers, crackpots, oddballs and other misfits, but I'm glad to be here.

You definitely belong here if you don't hesitate to trash the forum in your very first post, because we do tend to say what we think here.

Regarding residency, there are 3 options. Either:

1) temporary residency by volunteering (typically teaching English to poor children or veterans), cost about $500/year, but unreliable because government is cracking down on people abusing volunteer status to work off the books. David Plaster in the Facebook Expats in Ukraine forum is the best place fur this option, of you legitimately want to teach English as a volunteer.

2) temporary residency by starting a company and then hiring yourself as a director. Business doesn't actually have to do anything. Just say you are a consultant business with no clients yet. If you do this legally, you have to pay taxes on the director salary, so cost about $2500/year. However, there appears to be a loophole whereby you can freeze the company immediately after starting it, so no director salary and hence no tax on salary, and cost about $1000/year. Tasos Tsiamis in the Facebook Expats in Ukraine forum is very experienced with temporary residency through starting a business, and highly recommended by other people. I met him myself, but decided to postpone getting residency because of covid travel restrictions. Other lawyers in that Facebook forum provide similar services.

3) Permanent residency by investing $100K (or maybe it's now €100K). You can either leave the money in a bank account and then use it to pay business expenses (such as rent), or use it to buy property. All this has to be done through a company you form, so probably best to first do the temporary residency by company formation, then use that company to get the permanent residency. Note that there are all sorts of pitfalls to owning property in Ukraine. Personally, I prefer to remain flexible and rent, even if it costs a little more in the long run. As for just putting the $100K in the bank and then withdrawing to pay expenses, that's an option, but probably simpler to just do the temporary residency for next 40 years until I reach 100 (I'm 60 currently).

There's also permanent residency by marriage. Not advised unless you are absolutely certain about the woman.

You should probably try a variety of cities before committing to one. Kyiv is the simplest, but it's also the most expensive. Rent is usually your major expense and Kyiv rents are double those in other cities because of a housing shortage due to the IT boom, and rents will remain high in Kyiv for at least another 10 years. If you really want to save money, its probably better to go to another city. Of course, less English speakers and other accommodations for foreigners in other citues.

Personally, I'm thinking more and more of just doing the 90 in 180 days tourist visa and to hell with all these residency complications. Winter and summer in Ukraine, spring in Spain, autumn in Bulgaria, a few days here and there in Istanbul, Turkey to make sure I meet the 90 day rule. Constant travel makes me feel alive.

As far as girls, I just ran through a bunch of escorts back in 2017 until I found a keeper, then just started seeing her twice weekly while in Kyiv. Saw her 16 months during my most recent stay, during the covid plague. Truth is, I like being alone most of the time, so this minimal relationship works for me.

International Sex Guide discusses the P4P scene in Kyiv. Consensus is that good days are over unless you are long term (which you are) and willing to put in lots of time and effort to wade through a lot of garbage to find the good escorts. Still plenty of good escorts, and new arrivals every year, but they are not as easy to find as they used to be. Or so I hear, because I'm seeing that regular I met in 2017 and thus not actively seeking anymore.

If you want something deeper with a young woman, then you should probably go for single mothers, who definitely need money. Big problem is finding them. They tend to be busy with their children and also don't like the idea of selling themselves to some sexpat. Forget about single civilian girls (civilian meaning non escort): time when civilians in their 20's were interested in sexpats 30 years older is long past.

If you are genuinely interested in marriage and children, and you are good looking and university educated, you might get a leftover girl, meaning one in her late 20's who somehow missed getting married to a guy her own age (lots of perfectly acceptable reasons for this, such as she was dating a guy for years and then he flaked on her). I mention uni educated because majority of leftover girls are the educated ones, since university educated young people tend to delay marriage more than young people without higher education.

Russian is hard. Expect to spend 2000+ hours just to be able to do B2 level stuff like read newspapers and websites and have conversations, which is about my level now. That's an hour per day of study (not screwing around) for 5 years. Also, official language of Ukraine is Ukrainian and everything written in Ukrainian. If you are B2 in Russian, you can learn to read Ukrainian with another 200 hours effort.

[slavicreaver]

Shemp, thanks for the detailed response - I appreciate it.

Unless I get fed up of the bureaucratic process, I'll probably opt for the permanent residence option by investment but without buying property. I don't want the hassle of owning real estate, run the risk of real estate scams, nor add yet another tax-residence tie.

The reason I want the temporary/permanent residence is that I want to be able to integrate myself more into Ukrainian life and for that I figure I need to be there for at least 6 months in the year. I've read some of your posts and though like you, I can be a serious loner, sometimes years at a time (like now), I also need to come out of my shell every now and then or risk going stir crazy.

That's also why I've decided to go to Kiev although perhaps I should take your advice and check out Odessa and possibly Kharkov anyway. I want to be out there meeting people now and the more there are around, the greater the chance I'll meet someone with whom I can click. I'm talking about guys as well as girls - if there's one thing I've learned through life it's the importance of having solid male friendships.

Kharkov might be too small for me though I've heard it's great for the young student girls. But again, how to get them? Problem with Odessa is being tarred with the sex tourist/thirsty Turk brush.

The other major reason for staying longer is the language. Yeah - you are absolutely right. Russian is a bitch. I've racked up about 500 hours and my head is spinning - I'm hitting 2 hours a day. Screw all those stupid polyglot sites with misleading names like FluentIn3Months. I want to be able to say more than 'One cafe latte please' and 'Do you swallow?' (I can do the former but I still don't know the latter though I know the word for 'whore'.) My aim is to integrate as much as I can, which means I can overhear a conversation between natives and seamlessly slip myself in there. It's real fluency or bust for me. I firmly believe the world changes when your language level is that high. I figure if I manage to stay there long enough and totally immerse, I can do it in 2 or 3 years.

Right, the women. I find it difficult to have sex with a girl I don't know. (If I was still a teenager, obviously this would probably not be a problem.) That makes escorts a tricky issue for me. On the one hand, I'm seriously considering hiring a slew of them, each one different, just to get over my hangups in this regard. On the other hand, and I don't mean this is a snobbish sense, I'm put off by the risk of interacting with 'ickiness' or coming up against some unsavoury characters. I am a complete monger newbie and I don't know if maybe it's better to stay that way.

I don't have so many hangups when it comes to actually spending the money on women. That's why I'm considering the 'arrangements' option (hate the term sugar daddy). I understand that it's perfectly natural for women to be attracted to money - you just need to screen out the hardcore golddiggers. Like you said, I'm also ultimately looking for some kind of emotional connection, something deeper.

Yeah, the single mother option - that's something I've been thinking about a lot. I'm guessing it helps them and their children, so it has the feelgood factor to it as well. I'm sure I can charm my way in there. I'm going to have to come up with a plan to get these girls other than being that guy that lurks round children's playgrounds!

Not keen on marriage and especially on bringing such a woman back to the West. However, strangely enough, I would not be averse to having more children and 'settling down', especially with a university-educated girl in her late 20s. Hmm - I might have to keep my eye out in the background for such girls. Thanks, that's a great tip.

[slavicreaver]

@awaki

Yes, thanks for the reminder. I think I'm interacting with one such girl now online. Have to start thinking with my big head instead of the little one. Why is a hot 22 year old interested in me (I'd understand if it was in person being the charming man I am). I've already had the sob story about the previous bad relationship and how she's looking for a real man now. Time to ask for a Skype call I think.

When were you in Ukraine?

[Shemp]

Not keen on marriage and especially on bringing such a woman back to the West. However, strangely enough, I would not be averse to having more children and 'settling down', especially with a university-educated girl in her late 20s.

Ukrainian leftover girls in their late 20's, who are getting serious about life and marriage and children, are pretty quick at figuring out which foreign guys are also serious and which don't know what they want. Based on the above back to back sentences, you are clearly in the latter category, at least for now...

People are most attractive when they are not needy, but to legitimately be non-needy, you have to have all desires under firm control. With regards to sex, this is easiest when you have sexual options. Pretty young women always have sexual options, which is part of why they are attractive. That is, it's less their physical appearance than their attitude of non-neediness. Same reason wild animals tend to be attractive. It's very hard to fake non-neediness.

As a single older foreign man, you will naturally give off neediness vibes to all the local young women, unless you are regularly having sex with a pretty young woman. This is the best argument for seeing escorts. But like I wrote above, the market is much worse than it used to be. Still, I know other mongers who are successful even now at finding top quality escorts at reasonable prices in Kyiv. But they have to put in lots of time and effort wading through junk to find occasional jewels.

Nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable about meaningless sex with high-mileage escorts, possibly infected with STDs or planning to drug and rob you. Most normal men are not interested in that either. I'm not too keen on it myself. But given that I'm not willing to live permanently in Kyiv and no longer capable of emotional love and not much interested in women's conversation or companionship outside bed, I'm limited in what kind of women will accept me. As it turns out, my regular escort is a good match for me: not very emotional herself, no desire for children, doesn't much care for men's conversation or companionship outside bed, focused on getting rich quick by any means necessary, same as I was when I was her age. We deserve each other, in other words. Because she's a beauty, I legitimately have no eyes for other women, which makes me exceedingly non-needy. That non-neediness, together with the fact that I look age 45-50 rather than 60 and am obviously a foreigner with money, sends my own attractiveness sky-high to leftover girls. So if I wanted marriage and children, I would have plenty of candidates, though those in their 20's might balk when they learned my true age. But not those approaching 35, who are more desperate to start a family immediately. But it's all a moot point because I'm happy with that escort.

Anyway, not trying to corrupt you into becoming a hard-core monger, but I would encourage you to grab any opportunity to have a reliable no-strings-attached sex partner on call, who you see every few weeks, so that you don't give off those neediness vibes while looking for a permanent partner. Overweight single mothers in their 30's are perfect for this. $100/meet is a good starting point for price.

As for Russian, remember that language is fundamentally sound, so focus first on correct pronunciation (record yourself reading sentences and compare with recording of same sentences by natives), then focus on listening comprehension. Instead of reading, listen to audiobooks or podcasts with transcripts. Listening comprehension is the hard part of language. Speaking comes quickly if listening comprehension is there.

If you can afford $100K investment, then probably the cost advantage of Kharkiv (or Chernihiv, Sumy, Dnipro, Mykolaiv, Kherson, all cities with lots of Russian speakers) vs Kyiv not that significant. It's like $300/month extra rent in Kyiv versus elsewhere. Odesa is a special case, because the incessant scamming there outweighs any rent savings. Some people like Odesa, though I'm not sure why it would be better than Kherson or Mykolaiv. Maybe because they enjoy the scammy vibes: birds of a feather flock together.

[Voyager1]

It's not like 20-30 years ago where a 50 something could have a 20 something in Russia/Ukraine. The dynamic has changed. Choose a realistic age difference. Not more than 15 years. Still she will be dependent on you financially. Be prepared to pay and that's just normal women excluding scammers. There's got to be a reason for her to be with you.

As for prostitutes, that's not my game. I prefer to have a girlfriend wake up in my bed. I'm a morning sex type of person.

[slavicreaver]

It's not like 20-30 years ago where a 50 something could have a 20 something in Russia/Ukraine. The dynamic has changed.

Yes, the glory years. I remember observing it from afar and being stuck in a corporate job, not being able to partake. It was a gold rush. Didn't have the balls then to leave and join in.

Choose a realistic age difference. Not more than 15 years. Still she will be dependent on you financially.

I disagree. I can still pull a woman in her late 30's off the street. But as for financial dependence, that's OK. But you're right. Girls in their 20s are going to be much, much harder to get.

May I ask, Voyager, what age group you are in?

[slavicreaver]

Ukrainian leftover girls in their late 20's, who are getting serious about life and marriage and children, are pretty quick at figuring out which foreign guys are also serious and which don't know what they want. Based on the above back to back sentences, you are clearly in the latter category, at least for now...

You're right. I'm thinking more of when I'm more settled in Ukraine and have had a few dalliances and have a better idea of what I'm looking for.

People are most attractive when they are not needy, but to legitimately be non-needy, you have to have all desires under firm control.

So true.

As a single older foreign man, you will naturally give off neediness vibes to all the local young women, unless you are regularly having sex with a pretty young woman. This is the best argument for seeing escorts. But like I wrote above, the market is much worse than it used to be. Still, I know other mongers who are successful even now at finding top quality escorts at reasonable prices in Kyiv. But they have to put in lots of time and effort wading through junk to find occasional jewels.

Agreed. That was part of my plan - get some sugar baby action lined up in the background so I can relax, take the pressure off and then take my time finding a real girlfriend. At the moment I'm on a sugar dating site by way of reconnaissance and preparation and I see it as a lower risk way of going down the P4P road, but even now I'm astounded by the number of entitled girls, girls with excessive expectations (it's like give me a rich Arab + yacht or nothing), girls who ghost after a few messages, rude girls and of course, the scammers. It's been a major drain on my time and energy. I've also met a pimp there - offering high class escorts at $500 for 2h. I've seen the girls - we are talking model quality, but it would be money down the drain for me unless I got myself into the right headspace about banging escorts. It's also getting to the limit for my weekly budget. Do you think I could get a sugar baby for that?

Nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable about meaningless sex with high-mileage escorts, possibly infected with STDs or planning to drug and rob you.

Exactly on the high-mileage and STDs. I also know two guys who have already woken up unconscious - and the girls weren't even escorts. Girls they met in bars.

As it turns out, my regular escort is a good match for me: not very emotional herself, no desire for children, doesn't much care for men's conversation or companionship outside bed, focused on getting rich quick by any means necessary, same as I was when I was her age. We deserve each other, in other words. Because she's a beauty, I legitimately have no eyes for other women, which makes me exceedingly non-needy. That non-neediness, together with the fact that I look age 45-50 rather than 60 and am obviously a foreigner with money, sends my own attractiveness sky-high to leftover girls.

If it's not asking too much, could you tell me how young your lady is, how much you pay her and how often do you see her? You can PM me if you wish.

Overweight single mothers in their 30's are perfect for this. $100/meet is a good starting point for price.

Overweight single mothers? Gosh, it's come to that now. . But seriously, are you telling me that there are overweight single mother escorts out there? On the one hand it doesn't sound like a boner-inducing prospect, Cialis or no, but on the other it might be less intimidating then starting out with the top-tier girls who would no doubt eat me alive, newbie that I am.

As for Russian, remember that language is fundamentally sound, so focus first on correct pronunciation (record yourself reading sentences and compare with recording of same sentences by natives), then focus on listening comprehension. Instead of reading, listen to audiobooks or podcasts with transcripts. Listening comprehension is the hard part of language. Speaking comes quickly if listening comprehension is there.

Language part I've got handled. Just need to put in the hours. Agreed with most of what you say. This is my method;

• Get the pronunciation sorted. Agree with you 100% on its importance.

• Read one grammar/course book.

• Cram 10,000 words of vocabulary. This should now automatically give you reading fluency.

• Now work on listening fluency - yeah, audiobooks and podcasts but I find soap operas good too, +/- subtitles in the target language.

• Agree with you that speaking fluency will follow quickly on from there.

I'm currently on phase 3 - at around 3,000 words.

If you can afford $100K investment, then probably the cost advantage of Kharkiv (or Chernihiv, Sumy, Dnipro, Mykolaiv, Kherson, all cities with lots of Russian speakers) vs Kyiv not that significant. It's like $300/month extra rent in Kyiv versus elsewhere. Odesa is a special case, because the incessant scamming there outweighs any rent savings. Some people like Odesa, though I'm not sure why it would be better than Kherson or Mykolaiv. Maybe because they enjoy the scammy vibes: birds of a feather flock together.

Yeah, I've already had an interaction with one scammer. I don't need that kind of shit. The extra $300/month I can handle so it looks like Kyiv it is.

Thanks once again for all your observations and insights. Very helpful.

[Cornfed]

Overweight single mothers in their 30's are perfect for this. $100/meet is a good starting point for price. [..]
It's like $300/month extra rent in Kyiv versus elsewhere

Such rip-off pricing would seem to defeat the purpose of living there. You could probably get better deals in a lot of places in the West if you weren't tied to a job.

[Shemp]

I pay my sugar baby way more than market rate because we have an actual relationship at this point and I like her and I can afford to be generous, so what I give her does not reflect market conditions, which is about $100/meet. She is 30 now, so 30 years younger than me. I usually see her twice weekly for 4 hours, which is about all I can take. I prefer being alone nowadays. She also prefers being alone or with her cat, so this works well. I think she still sees other guys occasionally, though t don't ask, but I doubt any local guy is going to marry her at this point because she is much too independent.

There are few model quality escorts available to the public, and these few are very independent, so you'll be unlikely to ever have any deeper connection. Same story in Britain: you can get top tier girls in London with enough money, but you're just another client who they put on an act for. Expect 99% of photos on websites to be fake and for 90% of the escorts you meet to be mediocre looking, older and overweight. Pretty young girls much prefer well-paid local boyfriends their own age, and there are plenty such guys now because of the IT boom. Though occasionally you'll meet girls who are simply too independent to be a girlfriend of a guy their own age, such as my girl, and who are emotionally suited for escorting, and maybe you'll be able to establish a deeper connection with the right girl.

What you have to do is what the other mongers do: grind through Mamba or Tinder or other sites (these sites are constantly changing, and I don't know which is best currently), using your real age to screen for girls looking for arrangements, then meet the girls in person in public, and eventually you should find some good ones.

[Voyager1]

Holy crap. $100/hour for 4 hours twice a week. $800. Now who's got "Sucker" taped to his forehead?

Frank you pay more in a week for your whore in Kyiv than I do my entire apartment for a month.

Just get a goddam girlfriend or wife.

slavic in answer to your question, I'm older than Winston and younger than shemp here. Somewhere in that ballpark.

[Shemp]

Holy crap. $100/hour for 4 hours twice a week. $800. Now who's got "Sucker" taped to his forehead?

Just get a goddam girlfriend or wife.

More like "rich" taped to my forehead. Wife would be vastly more expensive and what I have is a girlfriend suitable for me, fool. I'd spend just as much with a girlfriend who wasn't an escort, because either she was poor and I wanted to be generous, or she was rich and so I would have to spend a lot on expensive restaurants and travel suitable for rich girls. (Note that despite being generous with this current girlfriend, I still can't come close to spending my income, which is soaring thanks to all the government deficits since covid started. Maybe you should go back and read my posts here about my investing moves at the bottom of the market on March 23, 2020 and stop with your poverty thinking.)

Anyway, I meant that @slavicreaver should plan on $100/MEET not $100/hour. So $200/month if he sees a pro twice monthly while looking for someone permanent. You need to improve your reading comprehension.

[Cornfed]

Holy crap. $100/hour for 4 hours twice a week. $800. Now who's got "Sucker" taped to his forehead?

Just get a goddam girlfriend or wife.

More like "rich" taped to my forehead.

Or perhaps "rich asshole" since you are making the market more hostile to other men, although as part of the grossest generation you wouldn't care about that.

[slavicreaver]

Anyway, I meant that @slavicreaver should plan on $100/MEET not $100/hour. So $200/month if he sees a pro twice monthly while looking for someone permanent.

So to clarify - I could spend $100/meet, which to me means 3-4 hours. What kind of girl and age could I expect for that?

There are few model quality escorts available to the public, and these few are very independent, so you'll be unlikely to ever have any deeper connection. Same story in Britain: you can get top tier girls in London with enough money, but you're just another client who they put on an act for. Expect 99% of photos on websites to be fake and for 90% of the escorts you meet to be mediocre looking, older and overweight.

Yikes. That's what I'm afraid of. Being escort catfished and the chick shows up with a heavy as well.

What you have to do is what the other mongers do: grind through Mamba or Tinder or other sites (these sites are constantly changing, and I don't know which is best currently), using your real age to screen for girls looking for arrangements, then meet the girls in person in public, and eventually you should find some good ones.

Aha, this sounds like the way to go. Safer and controllable. Great info, thanks.