The Nature of Love

[Pixel--Dude]

@MarcosZeitola

Don't get me wrong... I get it. I'm a romantic soul as well. And I have experienced such feelings. They are terrifyingly powerful. If love as a feeling wasn't real, so much great literature and so many amazing songs never would have been written. It's a tremendously powerful, earth-shattering feeling. But it's also terrifying, because once you love someone truly, and deeply, with this all-consuming power, you are incredibly vulnerable. And when it ends, it feels like life itself comes to an end.

Yes, I agree with this. I've fallen really strongly for this girl I'm seeing at the moment. Where as before I was in a constant neutral mind-set, now I've experienced this intense love for this girl and I'm terrified of losing it. She lives quite far away from me, but we've been friends for ten years or so. At the moment we are both trying to save up so we can get a place together, but it is just so f***ing difficult. It feels like society and lots of other factors are working against me. But I'm a badass mofo who likes to play computer games on the hardest difficulty setting, apparently I like to live real life on the hardest difficulty setting as well.

People will probably say to me that I should just find a girlfriend who is closer to me, like in the same town or a nearby local area. But these NPC wenches will simply not do for me. Like @Tsar, I'm a man of integrity and I won't settle for anything less than what I want! And what I want is this girl I'm seeing right now. I even told @Lucas88 back when me and this girl were still just friends that she is the only girl I will consider for a relationship or else I would rather be alone.

I wanted desperately to grow old together with my ex. To be old and grey together, surrounded by our descendants, talking of memories from a now distant past that feels as recent as yesterday. I wanted that. But I'll never have it, because I lost her, I lost the love, I lost all of it. And now, it frightens me. To fall that way. To surrender to such feelings. I'm much more physically oriented now, and calculating. It does not mean I no longer believe in love; I just think there are different forms of it. I love my fiance genuinely, but with a different level of intensity. It's very physical in nature, based on her value to me as a partner and what she can provide me with. Whereas the love I felt before went deeper, but ultimately cut me and hurt me much more than it would have, had the feelings been less severe.

It's a shame that you had to go through that kind of pain. I spoke in my Spiritual Anatomy thread that I think when two people fall in love their heart chakras form a bond, a sort of an energetic tether. When you break up that tether is severed and you feel the inexorable heart ache and pain that follows.

I used to love my kid's mother. But the first time round she broke up with me because she offered me a tea and I said no thanks. We argued all the time and when she broke up with me I was so gutted I thought I'd never be with anyone else. When she and I got back together after a few months it wasn't the same. I realised I don't have that authentic connection with this girl. She was too mean spirited to ever have authentically loved me. Even though we had a kid together and I tried my best to make it work it all ended in massive argument which was the final straw for both of us. I had no choice but to leave. Driving back north from London was bittersweet. I was happy to finally be away from that toxic relationship, but devastated I would be living so far away from my child.

I had a relationship after this with a polish girl, and although she might have loved me I just didn't feel like I could connect with her that well. She seemed more obsessive and possessive than loving in my opinion. Rather than feeling that connection I the heart I felt a bit suffocated by her and wanted some f***ing space.

So I aim towards a more mellow love, where to have her is a blessing each day but to lose her would not be the end of my world. Where we take each day as it comes, enjoy it, feel blessed for it, and see where it takes us. Because I've experienced the more extreme form of love and it can burn a man. The candle that burns brightest, burns out quickest. I'm not a cynic, my friend, I am just a realist.

I think I feel this kind of intense love for my current girlfriend. It's much stronger than any of the others. I think this is my last chance to settle down and make a life with a girl I love and possibly start over again. I always said after the kid's mum I would never live with another girl again, nor would I have anymore kids. But I'm open to it all with the girl I'm seeing now.

I agree though, this candle has been set alight with a f***ing flamethrower. I'm also a realist and realise real life isn't some fairy tale or rom com. She might not want to move when the time comes. She could become distant from me emotionally etc all these factors. But at the moment I am remaining optimistic about the future with her. I'm staying positive, or trying to. Despite all the different factors working against my favour.

[Pixel--Dude]

I agree that true love just hits us out of nowhere when we least expect it. I've always found love at times when I wasn't even looking for a girlfriend or had even given up on the idea. I don't think that we have much choice in the matter. I met both of my Latin American girlfriends this way. They both suddenly appeared in my life due to circumstances beyond my control and we soon fell in love and entered a relationship.

It's true isn't it. Every time I've got with a girl it's always been when I haven't been looking for a girlfriend. When I am actively looking for a girlfriend I almost always never find one and eventually give up. But it's true, you can't really choose whether or not you fall in love. It just happens and we become a slave to the desires of the heart.

From a metaphysical perspective, I intuit that our souls or "higher selves" simply make agreements with other souls who may be suitable from the spiritual realm without the knowledge of the incarnate ego. Behind the scenes two compatible souls plan to meet somewhere in the physical world and fall in love. When this happens, the incarnate ego is just amazed since it all seems to come out of nowhere. This is how I believe that it works. It's not that our love is preordained by fate but rather that our higher selves agree to come together with a potential significant other and arrange for it to happen. This isn't fool-proof though. Our higher selves do their best to make it work but sometimes obstacles in the physical world can get in the way and sabotage the plans of souls.

This is an interesting theory. A predetermined life plan seems to conflict with the idea of free will, but what you're suggesting with your theory is that both a predetermined life plan and free will are true since it's our "higher selves" or oversoul which determines our life plan and in this sense we still have free will to determine our fate. Including in terms of love.

In my current situation I do really feel like society and this bullshit economic system is standing in my way. I can't make enough money to make my dreams realised and I feel completely trapped. I think it's the same for most people.

Conversely, I don't think that we can force true love. Many people go out and proactively look for a girlfriend or a wife and try to force it but in reality they simply pair up in accordance with purely practical or material needs and then end up trying to force their own ideals onto the other person and mold them in accordance with their own desires. This kind of "love" is illusory and these kind of relationships often become about power, control and exploitation. I believe that the majority of relationships and marriages fall into this category.

I agree with this. I tried my best to force that kind of connection with my Polish ex girlfriend and I just didn't feel it, despite the fact she was a lovely woman who treated me well. Most people have never experienced true authentic love. I don't know how anyone can claim they love their significant other when they want to change who they are and mold them into what is their perceived perfect partner.

[Pixel--Dude]

I agree with this assessment.

The vast majority of self-styled "tradcons" online are weak undesirable manginas who simply want the authority to control women and force them to submit to their whims. All of their talk about "love" and "morality" is just pretense. This is the reason why those sniveling little weakboys who shouldn't even be called "men" have the desire to strip women of their ability to make their own money and thereby remove all independence for them. They want to make women completely financially dependent on them so that those weak undesirable subpar males can force women to come crawling to them and trap them in loveless marriages through imposed desperation. Let's be honest. Some of these tradcon manginas are truly evil people and little vindictive control freaks. They simply hide behind a cloak of moral superiority blowing smoke up each other's asses and claiming to be exemplars of righteousness.

I agree completely. This is a typical NPC conception of love and demonstrates the unbelievable solipsism of these little NPC tradcock narcs. A relationship which is based on authentic love should be about trust and respect. It is natural to want to see your significant other flourish in whatever she chooses. If you love your wife or girlfriend you will be supportive of her choices.

But you're right, these little narcs just want power and control over women and they're pissy because we live in an ultra feminised society where women have most of the power. Tradcon dweebs are just feminists trapped in a man's body and they're pissy because they don't get to have all the power and control in the relationship. These people are indeed immoral degenerates hiding behind a thin veil of piety.

Our friend @WilliamSmith expressed a similar opinion about these pathetic mangina tradcon weasels during his most recent HA rampage. He too can see how perverse they really are.

Yes, that was pretty good and I actually agree with what he said. These tradcon losers command respect from women and then at the same time believe they should be forced into prostitution like cattle or forced into marriage with weak subpar men and treated akin to house pets. These people are a joke

Noble people in a truly loving relationship don't seek to control their significant other through money and authority. They want their significant other to flourish freely and support them in their personal goals and aren't insecure about their significant other leaving them or cheating on them with someone else. The marriages of financial dependency and entrapment which these vile manginas long for and want to impose on everyone else are not based on love at all. When I was with my Latin American girlfriends, I didn't want to control them or make them completely dependent on me. I wanted to elevate them and encourage them to flourish too. Guys who are noble and genuinely able to fulfill a woman and elevate her usually have no problem keeping a noble woman. We don't need to have financial control over women or subject them to authoritarian doctrines like those ignoble little pieces of human excrement do.

hahaha exactly. Why would any self respecting woman want to stay in a relationship with some toxic little narc tradcon when she can leave him and be with a man who actually values her as a person and not as some property.

When I think about these weak tradcon men I think they are just the polar opposite of these toxic women who see their men as some kind of work horse or a cash cow. None of these people respect their partners or truly love them. They are just selfish and possessive and want to "own" a partner and then delude themselves that they're in love.

I've done nothing but be encouraging to my girlfriend. I want her to do well in all the things she does. I'm supportive of her and would share everything I have with her because a truly loving relationship is 50/50. Mutual trust, respect and love. That is what a relationship should be.

I also notice how many self-styled "moralists" and religious fanatics are actually far more immoral and evil than most liberals and secular people. They like to incessantly tubthump about moral values and their own "one vision" which they attempt to conflate with objective truth but, when you get to know them better, you find that they are just vile immoral individuals with no respect for the freedom of others or anything outside of their short-sighted fanaticism. But what else can be expected of a group of people who revere a "holy book" chock-full of heinous atrocities and with an obsession with blood sacrifice to some psychopathic Jew god (this also includes the (((New Testament))), by the way)? I think that in most cases their perverse souls simply resonate with that perverse religion and that's why they're so attracted to it. Perversity attracts perversity.

Hmmmmm. This all sounds very familiar. A few people in particular spring to mind I think if you don't respect the freedom of others then you are an immoral individual or completely delusional. Especially if you erroneously believe that your views in particular are the one true vision and everyone else is deceived or whatever.

How delusional does one have to be? How narcissistic, solipsistic and immoral? It's little wonder these little tradcon narcs struggle to find love. Unless they can get someone who struggles to express themselves and is therefore easy to manipulate and control, eh?

[MarcosZeitola]

@MarcosZeitola

Don't get me wrong... I get it. I'm a romantic soul as well. And I have experienced such feelings. They are terrifyingly powerful. If love as a feeling wasn't real, so much great literature and so many amazing songs never would have been written. It's a tremendously powerful, earth-shattering feeling. But it's also terrifying, because once you love someone truly, and deeply, with this all-consuming power, you are incredibly vulnerable. And when it ends, it feels like life itself comes to an end.

Yes, I agree with this. I've fallen really strongly for this girl I'm seeing at the moment. Where as before I was in a constant neutral mind-set, now I've experienced this intense love for this girl and I'm terrified of losing it. She lives quite far away from me, but we've been friends for ten years or so. At the moment we are both trying to save up so we can get a place together, but it is just so f***ing difficult. It feels like society and lots of other factors are working against me. But I'm a badass mofo who likes to play computer games on the hardest difficulty setting, apparently I like to live real life on the hardest difficulty setting as well.

People will probably say to me that I should just find a girlfriend who is closer to me, like in the same town or a nearby local area. But these NPC wenches will simply not do for me. Like @Tsar, I'm a man of integrity and I won't settle for anything less than what I want! And what I want is this girl I'm seeing right now. I even told @Lucas88 back when me and this girl were still just friends that she is the only girl I will consider for a relationship or else I would rather be alone.

I wanted desperately to grow old together with my ex. To be old and grey together, surrounded by our descendants, talking of memories from a now distant past that feels as recent as yesterday. I wanted that. But I'll never have it, because I lost her, I lost the love, I lost all of it. And now, it frightens me. To fall that way. To surrender to such feelings. I'm much more physically oriented now, and calculating. It does not mean I no longer believe in love; I just think there are different forms of it. I love my fiance genuinely, but with a different level of intensity. It's very physical in nature, based on her value to me as a partner and what she can provide me with. Whereas the love I felt before went deeper, but ultimately cut me and hurt me much more than it would have, had the feelings been less severe.

It's a shame that you had to go through that kind of pain. I spoke in my Spiritual Anatomy thread that I think when two people fall in love their heart chakras form a bond, a sort of an energetic tether. When you break up that tether is severed and you feel the inexorable heart ache and pain that follows.

I used to love my kid's mother. But the first time round she broke up with me because she offered me a tea and I said no thanks. We argued all the time and when she broke up with me I was so gutted I thought I'd never be with anyone else. When she and I got back together after a few months it wasn't the same. I realised I don't have that authentic connection with this girl. She was too mean spirited to ever have authentically loved me. Even though we had a kid together and I tried my best to make it work it all ended in massive argument which was the final straw for both of us. I had no choice but to leave. Driving back north from London was bittersweet. I was happy to finally be away from that toxic relationship, but devastated I would be living so far away from my child.

I had a relationship after this with a polish girl, and although she might have loved me I just didn't feel like I could connect with her that well. She seemed more obsessive and possessive than loving in my opinion. Rather than feeling that connection I the heart I felt a bit suffocated by her and wanted some f***ing space.

So I aim towards a more mellow love, where to have her is a blessing each day but to lose her would not be the end of my world. Where we take each day as it comes, enjoy it, feel blessed for it, and see where it takes us. Because I've experienced the more extreme form of love and it can burn a man. The candle that burns brightest, burns out quickest. I'm not a cynic, my friend, I am just a realist.

I think I feel this kind of intense love for my current girlfriend. It's much stronger than any of the others. I think this is my last chance to settle down and make a life with a girl I love and possibly start over again. I always said after the kid's mum I would never live with another girl again, nor would I have anymore kids. But I'm open to it all with the girl I'm seeing now.

I agree though, this candle has been set alight with a f***ing flamethrower. I'm also a realist and realise real life isn't some fairy tale or rom com. She might not want to move when the time comes. She could become distant from me emotionally etc all these factors. But at the moment I am remaining optimistic about the future with her. I'm staying positive, or trying to. Despite all the different factors working against my favour.

@Pixel--Dude

There are two competing sides to me. One that is a horny bastard who wants a lot of different experiences, and who believes variety is the spice of life. This side is in awe of just how brief life is and wants to "get the most out of it", in every way imaginable. Then there is this other side... my "post nut clarity" side. It is romantic, wholesome, it wants to just be with my one and only lady, for a lifetime. Grow old with her. It's just that, sooner or later, I arrive at the "old" part. I'd hate to arrive there with regrets of what could have been, you know?

For now I simply take each day as it comes. I enjoy moments. Savor each and every bite of good food, each sip of a good drink. I love life. I love my children. I love my woman. She's perfect, and I am in awe of her beauty. Life is good, and I have been blessed. Why be greedy? Man's greatest flaw is to always want more. Likewise, a major flaw is to settle for less. Finding the balance is key.

Love is a powerful thing. I hope it works out for you, as I hope it does for me. Because it's beautiful, when it does. Some here on this forum have become cynical, jaded. I have moments of cynicism myself. But I've never lost or abandoned hope. I wouldn't be myself if I had... cynicism doesn't become me. Like me, you're a father. So you know the truest and purest form of love in the universe. And when a man knows such love, he is already at peace in a way. Whatever comes after, is a bonus. A gift from the universe. Good luck, man. I have a feeling you and this girl will work out just fine. If she's The One, she's The One. Life may be hard mode, but you've beaten hard mode before. Surely you will again.

[Pixel--Dude]

There are two competing sides to me. One that is a horny bastard who wants a lot of different experiences, and who believes variety is the spice of life. This side is in awe of just how brief life is and wants to "get the most out of it", in every way imaginable. Then there is this other side... my "post nut clarity" side. It is romantic, wholesome, it wants to just be with my one and only lady, for a lifetime. Grow old with her. It's just that, sooner or later, I arrive at the "old" part. I'd hate to arrive there with regrets of what could have been, you know?

I get what you're saying. This makes sense to me. I think the purpose of life is to grow through various experiences and all the rest of it. It's always nicer though to share these experiences with a significant other in my opinion.

To be honest, I don't think about growing old. I kind of live in the moment. I do think about the future, but I tend to focus on the more immediate future, rather than years and years in front. Because you never know what kind of curveball life will throw at you. Remember I said somewhere before, possibly in this very thread, that life doesn't give a f**k about what your plans are. Come whatever may. Carpe Diem!

For now I simply take each day as it comes. I enjoy moments. Savor each and every bite of good food, each sip of a good drink. I love life. I love my children. I love my woman. She's perfect, and I am in awe of her beauty. Life is good, and I have been blessed. Why be greedy? Man's greatest flaw is to always want more. Likewise, a major flaw is to settle for less. Finding the balance is key.

Yes, you are right. I've been a bit negative about my life circumstances lately. About the artificial, yet real obstacles this society imposes upon me. I've overlooked all the things I should be grateful for. My daughter is happy and healthy, my girlfriend is doing really well and I have found genuine love. I should be happy for everything that I have.

Love is a powerful thing. I hope it works out for you, as I hope it does for me. Because it's beautiful, when it does. Some here on this forum have become cynical, jaded. I have moments of cynicism myself. But I've never lost or abandoned hope. I wouldn't be myself if I had... cynicism doesn't become me. Like me, you're a father. So you know the truest and purest form of love in the universe. And when a man knows such love, he is already at peace in a way. Whatever comes after, is a bonus. A gift from the universe. Good luck, man. I have a feeling you and this girl will work out just fine. If she's The One, she's The One. Life may be hard mode, but you've beaten hard mode before. Surely you will again.

Thank you, I really appreciate this. You are absolutely right. When I've been down my good friends @Lucas88 and @Tsar have been there for me and gave me advice which is the same.

[Pixel--Dude]

When you fall in love, you make a subconscious decision to break your own heart at some point in the future.

What do you think to the above statement? Could it be true?

@Lucas88
@MarcosZeitola
@publicduende
@Winston

I'd like to point out that my relationship is still strong. But interestingly this is a consideration I've had when entering past relationships etc. When you get the girl the issue you have is keeping them.

Do relationships always inevitably lead to heartbreak and disappointment?

[Lucas88]

When you fall in love, you make a subconscious decision to break your own heart at some point in the future.

What do you think to the above statement? Could it be true?

@Lucas88
@MarcosZeitola
@publicduende
@Winston

I'd like to point out that my relationship is still strong. But interestingly this is a consideration I've had when entering past relationships etc. When you get the girl the issue you have is keeping them.

Do relationships always inevitably lead to heartbreak and disappointment?

I'd say that that is generally the case. Whenever you open up your heart to somebody else and commit to them, you're usually setting yourself up for future heartbreak or frustration. You're likely either to suffer an abrupt breakup and suffer intensely as a result or your relationship will slowly descend into a stagnant state resulting in protracted dissatisfaction and mutual animosity.

I'm not a fan of those Disney-esque lovesick types of relationships for a reason. The candle that burns the brightest also burns out the quickest and the emotional pain that results from the sudden extinction of such a bright yet fast-burning flame is often extremely damaging.

However, if you go into relationships with a different attitude - one that is not fixated on the unhealthy emotion of lovesickness -, then it is possible to have constructive relationships that don't lead to heartbreak. With a more realistic and pragmatic attitude, even if you separate from your partner, you can still recognize that you both gained from the relationship in terms of learning and positive experiences without being too overcome with emotional pain. You can go your separate ways knowing that you both benefitted in some way or another and became better people. The key here is non-attachment.

Relationships are not the be-all end-all. Many of them are actually quite toxic and almost all of them become boring at some point. There is far more to life than that. Things like artistic and athletic endeavors, the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom, and spirituality can be far more fulfilling. In my view, relationships and the pursuit of sex should be more of an accessory than the main goal. That way you build a more solid foundation for your own happiness and self-development without investing all of your energy into some external thing that could potentially cause you untold heartache.

[publicduende]

When you fall in love, you make a subconscious decision to break your own heart at some point in the future.

This is tantamount to saying "By being born, we make a subconscious decision to accept the trouble of getting older and dying at some point in the future".

There's the famous legend of Prometheus, the esoteric tradition equivalent to Lucifer (the Light Bringer), a God who descends on humanity to gift them with fire. With fire, men may now bring light into the dark, defend themselves from dangerous beasts, prolong their activities beyond the day/night cycles.

The lesser known part of this myth is that man had, until that moment, been hiding in dark caves, paralysed by the terror of dying. As well as giving something, fire, Prometheus also took something away from humanity: the fear of death. Without the fear, indeed the awareness of their limited time in this world and empowered with fire, mankind could now be not only the protagonists of their existence, but also project it in the future, by creating a legacy that could outlast their brief lives.

It's the same with love. Together with life, love is another one of these "prometheic" drivers, which goes beyond the awareness of its limited, transitory nature. If we started a relationship with the awareness that it will end in a few months or years, and hearts will be broken, very few people would still want to give it a shot. Nobody would make a full-hearted effort to enter and maintain it strong.

Few would remember that the main goal of a long-lasting relationship is to build that legacy that projects us beyond our own existence: children. Even fewer would observe that a serene family life is prime ground to making a man (and to some extent a woman) a fully-productive member of society. Once the tension of procuring a sexual partner is gone, man can focus on what he can do best: use their ingenuity to build a better world.

So, I would argue that the opposite of the OP is true: love, real love, always comes with the subconscious awareness that it will last forever.

[Pixel--Dude]

I'd say that that is generally the case. Whenever you open up your heart to somebody else and commit to them, you're usually setting yourself up for future heartbreak or frustration. You're likely either to suffer an abrupt breakup and suffer intensely as a result or your relationship will slowly descend into a stagnant state resulting in protracted dissatisfaction and mutual animosity.

I'm not a fan of those Disney-esque lovesick types of relationships for a reason. The candle that burns the brightest also burns out the quickest and the emotional pain that results from the sudden extinction of such a bright yet fast-burning flame is often extremely damaging.

However, if you go into relationships with a different attitude - one that is not fixated on the unhealthy emotion of lovesickness -, then it is possible to have constructive relationships that don't lead to heartbreak. With a more realistic and pragmatic attitude, even if you separate from your partner, you can still recognize that you both gained from the relationship in terms of learning and positive experiences without being too overcome with emotional pain. You can go your separate ways knowing that you both benefitted in some way or another and became better people. The key here is non-attachment.

Relationships are not the be-all end-all. Many of them are actually quite toxic and almost all of them become boring at some point. There is far more to life than that. Things like artistic and athletic endeavors, the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom, and spirituality can be far more fulfilling. In my view, relationships and the pursuit of sex should be more of an accessory than the main goal. That way you build a more solid foundation for your own happiness and self-development without investing all of your energy into some external thing that could potentially cause you untold heartache.

Hey @Lucas88 Thanks for your reply. I do agree that many relationships seem to end in disaster with one or more of those involved getting profoundly hurt. I wonder if most of these relationships ending in failure is the result of incompatibility issues, or whether society imposing pressure on the couple which adds strain and eventually causes couples to drift apart.

I do agree that the Disney-esque notion of love and romance movies brainwash people, especially women, with an unrealistic notion of love. It becomes like the philosophy of asceticism in Buddhism, just an unobtainable goal which ends in disappointment for one or both involved in the relationship. Maybe if women and men could curb their expectations a little bit it would make women and men more compatible. There is an old saying I read a while ago about relationships and why they fail: Women want men to change, but they never can and men want women to stay the same and they never do.

Personally, I've got my daughter and other things such as writing and spiritual pursuits keeping me anchored and I'm not totally dependent on my partner, even though I do really care for her. Point being, I don't put all my eggs in one basket. Call it harsh lessons learned from past experiences.

This is tantamount to saying "By being born, we make a subconscious decision to accept the trouble of getting older and dying at some point in the future".

There's the famous legend of Prometheus, the esoteric tradition equivalent to Lucifer (the Light Bringer), a God who descends on humanity to gift them with fire. With fire, men may now bring light into the dark, defend themselves from dangerous beasts, prolong their activities beyond the day/night cycles.

The lesser known part of this myth is that man had, until that moment, been hiding in dark caves, paralysed by the terror of dying. As well as giving something, fire, Prometheus also took something away from humanity: the fear of death. Without the fear, indeed the awareness of their limited time in this world and empowered with fire, mankind could now be not only the protagonists of their existence, but also project it in the future, by creating a legacy that could outlast their brief lives.

It's the same with love. Together with life, love is another one of these "prometheic" drivers, which goes beyond the awareness of its limited, transitory nature. If we started a relationship with the awareness that it will end in a few months or years, and hearts will be broken, very few people would still want to give it a shot. Nobody would make a full-hearted effort to enter and maintain it strong.

Few would remember that the main goal of a long-lasting relationship is to build that legacy that projects us beyond our own existence: children. Even fewer would observe that a serene family life is prime ground to making a man (and to some extent a woman) a fully-productive member of society. Once the tension of procuring a sexual partner is gone, man can focus on what he can do best: use their ingenuity to build a better world.

So, I would argue that the opposite of the OP is true: love, real love, always comes with the subconscious awareness that it will last forever.

Thank you for this very good response @publicduende I would however disagree with some of your principle points. Your opening statement where you said:

This is tantamount to saying "By being born, we make a subconscious decision to accept the trouble of getting older and dying at some point in the future".

There is a significant difference. We do not choose to be born, but we make a conscious decision to enter a relationship and there is the old saying about how marriage ends in one of two ways: death or divorce. So in that sense, you are definitely making a subconscious decision to suffer heartbreak in the future (under the supposition that your wife dies before you).

In saying that, even though I do believe the statement is true to an extent. I don't think people should avoid loving relationships based on an irrational fear that it will end in tears. I think it's better to live for the moment and also I think sharing special moments with a significant other enriches the experience somewhat.

Love comes with the assumption that it will last forever. This is naïve. Nothing lasts forever. Also, to base your relationship solely on the premise of procreation and becoming functioning members of society seems like flawed logic. I know yourself and @MarcosZeitola probably disagree. But think about it. You could procreate without entering a relationship (if you were so inclined) if you wanted to create a family you have to be sure of the woman you intend to get knocked up in my opinion. This is the mistake I made. I got a woman pregnant who I was in a hostile relationship with and now I have the heartache of having a child I love who I barely get to see. I'd like to point out that I don't fully regret this decision, as my child is someone who does enrich my life and give me a sense of purpose. She's like a little shining light in a world of darkness. But my main point is, a relationship should exist for a relationships sake and not to fulfil a different goal etc. Without a functional relationship, there is no family unit.

@Lucas88 & @publicduende I wanna ask you guys

What do you think to the notion of soul mates? Do you think that people have soul mates? Or is this just naivety and people just pair up with people they vibe with in the moment rather than it being some preordained meeting?

[publicduende]

Thank you for this very good response @publicduende I would however disagree with some of your principle points. Your opening statement where you said:

This is tantamount to saying "By being born, we make a subconscious decision to accept the trouble of getting older and dying at some point in the future".

There is a significant difference. We do not choose to be born, but we make a conscious decision to enter a relationship and there is the old saying about how marriage ends in one of two ways: death or divorce. So in that sense, you are definitely making a subconscious decision to suffer heartbreak in the future (under the supposition that your wife dies before you).

In saying that, even though I do believe the statement is true to an extent. I don't think people should avoid loving relationships based on an irrational fear that it will end in tears. I think it's better to live for the moment and also I think sharing special moments with a significant other enriches the experience somewhat.

Love comes with the assumption that it will last forever. This is naïve. Nothing lasts forever. Also, to base your relationship solely on the premise of procreation and becoming functioning members of society seems like flawed logic. I know yourself and @MarcosZeitola probably disagree. But think about it. You could procreate without entering a relationship (if you were so inclined) if you wanted to create a family you have to be sure of the woman you intend to get knocked up in my opinion. This is the mistake I made. I got a woman pregnant who I was in a hostile relationship with and now I have the heartache of having a child I love who I barely get to see. I'd like to point out that I don't fully regret this decision, as my child is someone who does enrich my life and give me a sense of purpose. She's like a little shining light in a world of darkness. But my main point is, a relationship should exist for a relationships sake and not to fulfil a different goal etc. Without a functional relationship, there is no family unit.

I know, and that is exactly my point @Pixel--Dude, mate. With life, there is a 100% certainty of being dead at some point in the future. Yet, almost everyone who is born on this planet gives a half-decent shot at having a full life: make experiences, love some of them, hate and regret others, treasure them and learn from them. And that's for a living being who is 100% certain will not last, say, their 150th birthday.

Like with life, with love, with make the subconscious decision to follow our nature of relational beings. It's always a risk, there is a non-zero possibility of ending up burned (or charred), broken and bent out repair. Yet, we wouldn't be human beings if we didn't have at least a desire to love, to entrust part of our life to someone who was a total stranger one week, one month or ten years before. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't go so well. We would always end up wiser, with bittersweet memories, stories to tell and a feeling that "we might well give it another try".

It's illogical, it's risky, it's bad, say what you like, but it's totally and profoundly human. A human being who doesn't want to risk it all for love because they feel it is not worth the time and energies will, very probably, see their prophecy self-fulfilled. This, I know by experience because I know a few people who ended up empty handed because they never wanted to give too much in the first place.

Very few people, especially men, can survive total loliness, living on an ivory tower of logic based on the fact that "all girls are bad" and "all relationships end up in a broken heart and a depleed bank account". I personally know I would never been able to. I don't know anybody who has, so far, been able to attain a perfect life by carefully avoiding feeling too involved, too invested, too emotionally drawn to someone else: be this someone else a single woman, a dog or an entire community.

Even the most hardened MGTOW who professes self-love like the ultimate solution to life BS, will still have a small network of like-minded people who mean "little more than nothing" to them.

As the famous motto goes, we can live without knowing why, but we can't live without knowing "for whom".

@Lucas88 & @publicduende I wanna ask you guys

What do you think to the notion of soul mates? Do you think that people have soul mates? Or is this just naivety and people just pair up with people they vibe with in the moment rather than it being some preordained meeting?

I don't know about soulmates, I have honestly never believed that there is "the perfect partner for every man or woman". However, I do believe there are degrees of personality compatibility, plus affinity that comes from many other aspects of life: belonging to the same community or culture, life-changing experiences in common, shared desires and preferences, etc.

Even then, people change and evolve all the time, partners included. For hard it sounds, the real challenge is not to find someone who vibes like you and fall for her/him, but find that vibe and that intensity 2, 5, 10 or 20 years later.

[Pixel--Dude]

Thank you for this very good response @publicduende I would however disagree with some of your principle points. Your opening statement where you said:

This is tantamount to saying "By being born, we make a subconscious decision to accept the trouble of getting older and dying at some point in the future".

There is a significant difference. We do not choose to be born, but we make a conscious decision to enter a relationship and there is the old saying about how marriage ends in one of two ways: death or divorce. So in that sense, you are definitely making a subconscious decision to suffer heartbreak in the future (under the supposition that your wife dies before you).

In saying that, even though I do believe the statement is true to an extent. I don't think people should avoid loving relationships based on an irrational fear that it will end in tears. I think it's better to live for the moment and also I think sharing special moments with a significant other enriches the experience somewhat.

Love comes with the assumption that it will last forever. This is naïve. Nothing lasts forever. Also, to base your relationship solely on the premise of procreation and becoming functioning members of society seems like flawed logic. I know yourself and @MarcosZeitola probably disagree. But think about it. You could procreate without entering a relationship (if you were so inclined) if you wanted to create a family you have to be sure of the woman you intend to get knocked up in my opinion. This is the mistake I made. I got a woman pregnant who I was in a hostile relationship with and now I have the heartache of having a child I love who I barely get to see. I'd like to point out that I don't fully regret this decision, as my child is someone who does enrich my life and give me a sense of purpose. She's like a little shining light in a world of darkness. But my main point is, a relationship should exist for a relationships sake and not to fulfil a different goal etc. Without a functional relationship, there is no family unit.

I know, and that is exactly my point @Pixel--Dude, mate. With life, there is a 100% certainty of being dead at some point in the future. Yet, almost everyone who is born on this planet gives a half-decent shot at having a full life: make experiences, love some of them, hate and regret others, treasure them and learn from them. And that's for a living being who is 100% certain will not last, say, their 150th birthday.

Like with life, with love, with make the subconscious decision to follow our nature of relational beings. It's always a risk, there is a non-zero possibility of ending up burned (or charred), broken and bent out repair. Yet, we wouldn't be human beings if we didn't have at least a desire to love, to entrust part of our life to someone who was a total stranger one week, one month or ten years before. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't go so well. We would always end up wiser, with bittersweet memories, stories to tell and a feeling that "we might well give it another try".

It's illogical, it's risky, it's bad, say what you like, but it's totally and profoundly human. A human being who doesn't want to risk it all for love because they feel it is not worth the time and energies will, very probably, see their prophecy self-fulfilled. This, I know by experience because I know a few people who ended up empty handed because they never wanted to give too much in the first place.

Very few people, especially men, can survive total loliness, living on an ivory tower of logic based on the fact that "all girls are bad" and "all relationships end up in a broken heart and a depleed bank account". I personally know I would never been able to. I don't know anybody who has, so far, been able to attain a perfect life by carefully avoiding feeling too involved, too invested, too emotionally drawn to someone else: be this someone else a single woman, a dog or an entire community.

Even the most hardened MGTOW who professes self-love like the ultimate solution to life BS, will still have a small network of like-minded people who mean "little more than nothing" to them.

As the famous motto goes, we can live without knowing why, but we can't live without knowing "for whom".

@Lucas88 & @publicduende I wanna ask you guys

What do you think to the notion of soul mates? Do you think that people have soul mates? Or is this just naivety and people just pair up with people they vibe with in the moment rather than it being some preordained meeting?

I don't know about soulmates, I have honestly never believed that there is "the perfect partner for every man or woman". However, I do believe there are degrees of personality compatibility, plus affinity that comes from many other aspects of life: belonging to the same community or culture, life-changing experiences in common, shared desires and preferences, etc.

Even then, people change and evolve all the time, partners included. For hard it sounds, the real challenge is not to find someone who vibes like you and fall for her/him, but find that vibe and that intensity 2, 5, 10 or 20 years later.

Thank you. This was a good response and I am finding it hard to propose a rebuttal for the sake of debate. Love is indeed like life as you said, given the knowledge that one way or another it will inevitably end. But it isn't about the destination, I suppose, it's more about the journey and I must confess as I already stated that experiences shared with a significant other seem to be much more enhanced in quality.

I don't know if my love for my girlfriend will endure in 10 years. Or even in a year. What I do know is that she has been one of my best friends for the last decade and someone I've always vibed really well with. If things didn't work out with her I sincerely doubt I could move on and find another partner with whom I could share that deep a connection. In other words, my relationship now is an all or nothing kind of deal. If it can't endure with someone I've shared close bonds of friendship with for over ten years then in my opinion it won't be worth pursuing ever again. That's my thought on love at the moment.

As for soul mates, if they exist I'd say I found mine.

[galii]

If you fall in love or not you will die anyway. Choose your poison choose your hobby choose your passion.

When I grew up there was so much stupidity, lies and bullshit that I wanted to know the truth. That is why I like science because it is not just bunch of lies. So I believe in the evolution theory. We are animals. We get born and and we die end of story.

Problems come up when we want the ideal life. Life is simple we make it complicated. We expect too much. Every minute is a litte gift but we make poison out of it. Btw. the word 'gift' in German means poison. Funny, right?

[Pixel--Dude]

If you fall in love or not you will die anyway. Choose your poison choose your hobby choose your passion.

When I grew up there was so much stupidity, lies and bullshit that I wanted to know the truth. That is why I like science because it is not just bunch of lies. So I believe in the evolution theory. We are animals. We get born and and we die end of story.

Problems come up when we want the ideal life. Life is simple we make it complicated. We expect too much. Every minute is a litte gift but we make poison out of it. Btw. the word 'gift' in German means poison. Funny, right?

I think you're right. I do think human beings do have a tendency to overcomplicate things. Especially relationships. Expectations can be a bit much, which inevitably ends in disappointment and causes the relationship to wear down.

Do you think romantic movies and such are a main cause of high expectations in loving relationships? I think they set an unrealistic standard which cannot be obtained.

[galii]

If you fall in love or not you will die anyway. Choose your poison choose your hobby choose your passion.

When I grew up there was so much stupidity, lies and bullshit that I wanted to know the truth. That is why I like science because it is not just bunch of lies. So I believe in the evolution theory. We are animals. We get born and and we die end of story.

Problems come up when we want the ideal life. Life is simple we make it complicated. We expect too much. Every minute is a litte gift but we make poison out of it. Btw. the word 'gift' in German means poison. Funny, right?

I think you're right. I do think human beings do have a tendency to overcomplicate things. Especially relationships. Expectations can be a bit much, which inevitably ends in disappointment and causes the relationship to wear down.

Do you think romantic movies and such are a main cause of high expectations in loving relationships? I think they set an unrealistic standard which cannot be obtained.

Not really I think the problem is we are animals. Some of us will do wild shit. You may not agree with me because it sounds materialistic and not spiritual but people without much 'morals' are normal in humans. People blame capitalism for example but we are naturally a bit capitalist that is why the system works.

This is how many of us are:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/nJPJd3Mxeu4
Joe Rogan horrific ape story

I throw a bit this about our life in there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk
You Can't Handle the Truth! - A Few Good Men (7/8) Movie CLIP (1992) HD

I guess that is why I try to keep my expectations low. Epikur said 'live hidden'. There are too many apes around. If one gets love it is nice but one should not be too greedy and get addicted to it I guess.




Edit:
Love is created by nature for survival. Check this thread:

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/ ... ad/?page=6

[publicduende]

Thank you. This was a good response and I am finding it hard to propose a rebuttal for the sake of debate. Love is indeed like life as you said, given the knowledge that one way or another it will inevitably end. But it isn't about the destination, I suppose, it's more about the journey and I must confess as I already stated that experiences shared with a significant other seem to be much more enhanced in quality.

I don't know if my love for my girlfriend will endure in 10 years. Or even in a year. What I do know is that she has been one of my best friends for the last decade and someone I've always vibed really well with. If things didn't work out with her I sincerely doubt I could move on and find another partner with whom I could share that deep a connection. In other words, my relationship now is an all or nothing kind of deal. If it can't endure with someone I've shared close bonds of friendship with for over ten years then in my opinion it won't be worth pursuing ever again. That's my thought on love at the moment.

As for soul mates, if they exist I'd say I found mine.

Well, thank you for appreciating my response. Possibly bordering the cheesy romantic (always count on an Italian for this kind of stuff LOL), but heartfelt and, at least as far as my life experience is concerned, aligned to "my" truth.

I literally had the best and the worst times of my life as consequences of falling for the right, or the not-so-right woman. The dark tragic event that befell me in 2011 was caused by a failed relationship that traced back to 2006, so dead and buried. Said woman was the vindictive type, she had nothing to lose and knew that I had everything to lose. I don't regret marrying my Colombian ex-wife and I don't regret marrying my current Filipina wife. I don't even regret most of the attempts at romance and love, no matter how seemingly useless and ultimately painful for either or both parties.

I can't speak for everybody, @Pixel--Dude, but, as far as I am concerned, no love given is love wasted.