Lucas88 wrote: ↑September 15th, 2023, 5:16 pm
Because, while nature does indeed provide us with everything we need to survive at the most basic and primitive level (e.g., hunter-gatherer societies), nature alone is full of brutality and doesn't make for a higher and more fulfilling existence with all of the benefits of technology, culture, intellect and the arts. In order to create such a higher and more fulfilling existence, we inevitably require human ingenuity and unnatural manipulation of our environment, not just nature.
Nature is full of brutality, this us true! But the brutality of nature is what gives living things the drive to survive. Nature can be a harsh mother, but she's also very nurturing and provides us with everything we need to survive. Not only that, but she provides us with all the tools necessary for us to cultivate technology, culture and the arts.
Given our own nature, the nature of human beings, I would argue that our ingenuity is also part of the natural process of things. Our ability to adapt and to use nature to build a lifestyle more conducive to human flourishing is arguably something which nature intended, and not an example of humans transcending nature. Regardless of your view on this, we as humans are totally dependent on nature and nature is independent of us and would continue to exist if humanity were to totally disappear.
Almost nothing that we call civilization and that has vastly improved our lives in comparison to the barbarism of precivilization can be considered strictly natural. Even the cereals that we cultivate and consume such as wheat and barley are the result of artificial selection by ancient farmers over the course of millennia during the agricultural revolution. Before then such things were hardly edible at all. Likewise, much of our livestock is the result of the selective breeding of domesticated animals. This selective breeding made them a lot more useful for our purposes.
Then there is civilization itself. Dwellings to protect us from the elements, complex social orders which allow concerted human effort on a large scale, writing and learning which allow for the development of the sciences and the arts - all of these things allow for a mode of life far superior to running around the forests in loincloths and hunting wild game.
I would contest that the so-called barbarism of precivilization is also something which is more in alignment with nature than our current system in a world of technological advancement. I'm sure
@MrPeabody knows a fair bit about indigenous people and how they work together and look out for each other. It was either him or
@publicduende who talked about Celtic tribes in this context. Point being that where we may look upon them as barbaric or uncivilised because of their lack of technology, in my opinion such tribes that live more closely in alignment with nature are socially more advanced than modern society.
In modern society there is a complete degeneration in social connection, which is a massive problem as humans are social creatures by their very nature. Yet if we look around the social disconnect in modern society is blatantly apparent. Not only that, but modern society seeks only to separate itself from nature, which is a complete folly.
I understand that modern technologies and such provide us with comforts and protection from the elements which indigenous cultures don't have the luxury of, but is it really worth it in light of the complete disconnect from not only mother nature, but each other as well?
Now more than ever unnatural things are making possible unprecedented advancements for humanity. AI is not only driving forward a revolution in robotics and automated systems that will make all of the tasks necessary for the maintenance of civilization much more efficient, but is also allowing us to analyze enormous quantities of data (previously unconceivable quantities) which will allow for major breakthroughs in all kinds of scientific fields. At the same time, genetic research will offer cures for a host of genetic diseases previously incurable. This state of unnature is obviously far better than living in mud huts, defecating in bushes and hunting mammoths with primitive spears.
Yes, you've provided some good examples of how modern civilisation can be conducive in ways to humanity. But this is a duality which is also having detrimental effects upon our species. Such effects cannot be ignored or denied. A forest dwelling tribe at least act socially, in alignment with our nature. Most of them also had (have) a strong connection with nature and Gaia. We have forgotten a lot about our true nature as humans in modern society. Most people don't care about each other or value one another like indigenous tribes would.
Let me give you an example. Social media is something invented to keep people connected. It's supposed to be something that makes human connectivity much easier and more convenient in the modern world. But look how shitty it us once you scratch below the surface of it. It's all superficial bullshit. I've been in a room full of people all ignoring each other in real life so that they can interact with other people artificially over the Internet through social media.
Another thing that pisses me off with social media is the fact that people live vicariously through their phones, taking countless pictures and videos of an experience, rather than living in the moment and authentically enjoying it. It's as though recording the experience is more important than actually experiencing it. How many times have you seen idiots posting pictures on social media of their holiday? Some beautiful scenic view which is blocked by someone's face as they take a selfie. Nobody cares about anything or anyone anymore. And modern technology, social media and society are all partly to blame.
This is just a small example of how detrimental technology has become to our species. However, I do agree that automation of labour is a must! Though in a capitalist world this is also a problem as it just means more people straving to death without any income. What do you guys think of this
@WanderingProtagonist,
@willymonfrete and
@MrMan?
Nature, while necessary and fundamental, is also cruel and unforgiving. Humans must use and indeed have used our innate ingenuity - our great Promethean gift - to transcend the limitations of nature and build upon it something much greater and more conducive to human flourishing.
I think everything in nature is a duality and a rhythmic balance of good and bad. There is no other way for it to be so. Mother nature may be harsh and unforgiving. But she roots out the weak and those who aren't fit for survival die. This is harsh, but true. She is also a fantastic provider, giving us everything we need to survive and come this far. It can be argued that the reason she is so hard on us is to drive us and force us to become strong and also to cause us to find new ways to protect ourselves from the elements.
I think it was always our purpose as a species to advance technologically. It's what Gaia would want for her children. But we have gone about it all wrong. What we really need is some kind of synthesis of modern technology and automation and the close knit tribal community spirit which helps keep these indigenous peoples alive.
I speculate that entheogenic plants such as Ayahuasca might form part of a more primitive Telluric spirituality given to tribal peoples but still useful to many modern people today - a Telluric spirituality which connects those who partake in it directly to Gaia or the Pachamama, the intelligent spirit and consciousness of the Earth.
This is in contrast to the more developed Celestial forms of spirituality such as Kundalini and inner alchemy which connect the adept to heaven (in the case of the Kundalini, a joining of the Telluric lifeforce energy with Sahasrara) and the higher realms of consciousness.
I absolutely agree with you here. I think these entheogenic plants, which are erroneously labelled as drugs or accused of providing gateways to demons by hysterical Christians, are in fact wonderful gifts from nature. Or rather wonderful gifts from mother nature so that we may come to understand the nature of the world and universe we live in. Such experiences offered are more authentic than any holy book as they can be directly experienced.
I think this is why Pachamama called upon you through your wrestling instructor, the same way that I heard the call to experiment with these entheogenic plants to cure my depression or experience something transcendental. We were both in despair and felt like this life was just pointless and full of suffering. Entheogenic plants showed us both that there is still wonder and magic to behold in this world. Arguably these experiences changed our lives for the better.
You are free to make any decision you desire, but you are not free from the consequences of those decisions.
). Actually, it was the Pachamama who told him to invite me to try Ayahuasca. One night I received a text message from him out of the blue explaining to me that he became acquainted with the Pachamama during an Ayahuasca trip and that she told him that she wanted me to take Ayahuasca in order to become acquainted with her too. I was amazed by such invitation transmitted to me through my wrestling instructor and attended an Ayahuasca ceremony with the same shaman shortly thereafter.
