Why Randi gets so annoyed

[woodwater]

Here is the exchange between Randi and me. I’ve removed unneeded repetition, like quoted and requoted text of the emails, and my sig.


Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:56:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Pepper" <hey_pep> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: Would this count for the million bucks?
To: jref@randi.org, randi@randi.org

If I could demonstrate that EFT (Emotional Freedom
Technique) works, would I win the million bucks? It
involves tapping on points while focusing on a
problem.

http://www.emofree.com

Pepper

...

From: "James Randi" <randi> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Pepper'" <hey_pep>
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:20:10 -0400

What "points," what "problem"?

James Randi.

...

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:19:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Pepper" <hey_pep> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
To: randi@randi.org

Thank you for your quick reply.

There are various points on the body, the top of the
head, near the eyebrow, the side of the eye, near the
collarbone. They are listed in detail in the manual on
the site. The problem can be emotional, like a phobia,
or physical, like pain.

Best wishes,
Pepper

...

From: "James Randi" <randi> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Pepper'" <hey_pep>
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:27:58 -0400

I don't understand, and I', not going to take a course in understanding
what you're trying to get at.

What's the claim, and who's making it?

James Randi.

...

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:10:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Pepper" <hey_pep> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
To: randi@randi.org

I'm making the claim. I'll use a headache as an
example of a "problem". You rub a spot on your chest
as say, "Eventhough I have this headache, I totally
accept myself." Then you tap on the top of your head
with your fingers and say to yourself, "this
headache". Then you tap near your eye, nose, collar
bone, under your arm, on your fingers, and then a
point on your hand. This will get rid of the headache.

Pepper

...

From: "James Randi" <randi> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Pepper'" <hey_pep>
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:59:10 -0400

This is a silly game. I'm not interested. Grow up.

James Randi.

...

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:52:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Pepper" <hey_pep> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
To: randi@randi.org

Gee, now I know why nobody has won the million bucks!
Somebody makes a claim, and you just call it a silly
game and say you're not interested! Everyone else I've
explained EFT to understands it. And I even gave you a
link to the site that has a manual to download that
gives all the details, instructions and claims. I've
read claims and counter claims on the net WRT your
challenge. Now I know the truth, you are just plain
full of it!

And you still didn't answer the question. IF I could
demonstrate EFT works, would I get the million bucks?

Pepper


...

From: "James Randi" <randi> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Pepper'" <hey_pep>
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:24:14 -0400

The answer is still yes. That hasn't changed.

I'm not about to read any manual! I'm far to busy for that, and it's
YOUR job to tell me what you'd do to "prove" this idea.

Try thinking, just for a change:

1. I'll use a headache as an example of a "problem".

What "headache"? WHO has the headache? How will you establish that
the
person -- whoever -- has a headache?

2. You rub a spot on your chest as say [sic] "Eventhough [sic] I have
this headache, I totally accept myself."

Why am I saying this? Does the person with the headache have to be in
the room?

3. Then you tap on the top of your head with your fingers and say to
yourself, "this headache".

Whether I have the headache, or someone else does, either in the room
or
at a remote location? Does the person with the headache have to know
that I'm saying this?

4. Then you tap near your eye, nose, collar bone, under your arm, on
your fingers, and then a point on your hand. This will get rid of the
headache.

How will you establish this?

YOU HAVE GIVEN A FUZZY DESCRIPTION OF A SILLY, MAGICAL, SONG_AND_DANCE.
Answer the questions above, and we'll go from there.

And, if I am the "subject" with the headache, how do you know whether
(a) I have or don't have a headache, or (b) that it's gone away, or is
still there.

THINK!

James Randi.

...

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:41:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Pepper" <hey_pep> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
To: randi@randi.org


--- James Randi <randi> wrote:

> The answer is still yes. That hasn't changed.

Still? This is the first time you've said "yes".

> I'm not about to read any manual! I'm far to busy
> for that, and it's
> YOUR job to tell me what you'd do to "prove" this
> idea.

I first wanted to know that IF I could prove it works,
if would get the million bucks or not. I can prove I
can pass gas, but I assume I wouldn't get a million
bucks for that.

> Try thinking, just for a change:

I am thinking. Again, I was just trying to establish
if EFT would qualify for the challenge! That's it.

> 1. I'll use a headache as an example of a
> "problem".
>
> What "headache"? WHO has the headache? How will
> you establish that the
> person -- whoever -- has a headache?

And you claim I just want to play games? Anybody on
earth could have the headache, and you'd establish
that the same way one always does, by asking. That is
how it's established, no?

>
> 2. You rub a spot on your chest as say [sic]
> "Eventhough [sic] I have
> this headache, I totally accept myself."

OooOooooOoooo, spelling flames. You must be so much
smarter than me!

> Why am I saying this?

It's the EFT protocol.

> Does the person with the
> headache have to be in
> the room?

Yes.

>
> 3. Then you tap on the top of your head with your
> fingers and say to
> yourself, "this headache".
>
> Whether I have the headache, or someone else does,
> either in the room or
> at a remote location? Does the person with the
> headache have to know
> that I'm saying this?

Yes.

>
> 4. Then you tap near your eye, nose, collar bone,
> under your arm, on
> your fingers, and then a point on your hand. This
> will get rid of the
> headache.
>
> How will you establish this?

How do they do it will all other headache treatments?
Don't they just ask?

> YOU HAVE GIVEN A FUZZY DESCRIPTION OF A SILLY,
> MAGICAL, SONG_AND_DANCE.

When I point you to a step by step detailed
description of the process, you say you don't have
time to read it. When I try to give a quick overview,
you say the description is "fuzzy".

> Answer the questions above, and we'll go from there.
>
> And, if I am the "subject" with the headache, how do
> you know whether
> (a) I have or don't have a headache, or (b) that
> it's gone away, or is
> still there.
>

I had always assumed when they do studies for headache
medicines, they just ask the people if they have a
headache or not.

> THINK!
>
> James Randi.
>

I am thinking.

Pepper

...

From: "James Randi" <randi> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Pepper'" <hey_pep>
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:06:10 -0400

Bottom line:

Describe to me an experiment that would show this idea curing a
headache. Certainly, if you suggest to someone that they no longer
have
a headache, that is open to the person being affected by pure
suggestion, since headaches are subject to suggestion.

I can't imagine a proper test of the claim. If you can, tell me about
it.

The ONLY kind of test that could be done, is to not tell the person
when
the "magic" is being applied, or not applied -- but you say that they
have to be aware of it, so suggestion is always there.

This cannot be tested. If you think it can, describe the test.

James Randi.

...

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:32:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Pepper" <hey_pep> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
To: randi@randi.org


--- James Randi <randi> wrote:
> Bottom line:
>
> Describe to me an experiment that would show this
> idea curing a
> headache. Certainly, if you suggest to someone that
> they no longer have
> a headache, that is open to the person being
> affected by pure
> suggestion, since headaches are subject to
> suggestion.

So you use a placebo to control for suggestion. Maybe
a phrase like "Alakazam you're cured", or a "sugar
pill".

You have one group of people get the EFT treatment,
and one get the placebo. Compare results.

> I can't imagine a proper test of the claim. If you
> can, tell me about
> it.
>
> The ONLY kind of test that could be done, is to not
> tell the person when
> the "magic" is being applied,

But the procedure involves TAPPING. What you're asking
for is like asking someone to prove acupuncture works,
but they aren't allowed to use needles.

> or not applied -- but
> you say that they
> have to be aware of it, so suggestion is always
> there.

Yes, suggestion is always there. It's there with EFT,
aspirin, and chemotherapy. So, you control for
suggestion with a placebo.

Pepper

...

From: "James Randi" <randi> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Pepper'" <hey_pep>
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 19:13:14 -0400

I can see this will take a long time to get through to you....

For a control, simply arrange to have the "tapping" done in the wrong
way -- just as acupuncture test controls are done by inserting the
needles in the wrong spots....

"So you use a placebo to control for suggestion. Maybe a phrase like
"Alakazam you're cured", or a "sugar pill". You have one group of
people
get the EFT treatment,
and one get the placebo. Compare results."

But since you say that the subjects have to know what you're saying,
they would have to be unaware of what the correct "magic words" are
supposed to be: ""Even though I have this headache, I totally accept
myself." Would "Though I actually have this headache, I absolutely
accept myself" be a "control" because it's not the same words?

If, instead of "tapping" near the eye, nose, collar bone, underarm, on
the fingers, and a point on the hand, we tapped near the eyebrow, lip,
neck, and elbow -- would that be a satisfactory "control"?

(Aside: I'm suspecting that this is a joke, though April 1 has passed.
That anyone who can spell and operate a computer, actually believes
that
just saying magical words and tapping can cure a headache, has to be
unbelievable.)

(Also aside: If the magic words were spoken in French, and the person
wore gloves or "tapped" using a stick, would it still work? I'm trying
to find out just how silly this can get.)

I'm also trying to imagine how one would find a group of people with
simultaneous headaches, and I'm unable to....

This is going to be a hoot when it runs on the web page. I just hope
the readers will believe that I didn't make it up....!

James Randi.

...

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:48:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Pepper" <hey_pep> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
To: randi@randi.org


--- James Randi <randi> wrote:

> I can see this will take a long time to get through
> to you....
>
> For a control, simply arrange to have the "tapping"
> done in the wrong
> way -- just as acupuncture test controls are done by
> inserting the
> needles in the wrong spots....

Fine.

>
> "So you use a placebo to control for suggestion.
> Maybe a phrase like
> "Alakazam you're cured", or a "sugar pill". You have
> one group of people
> get the EFT treatment,
> and one get the placebo. Compare results."
>
> But since you say that the subjects have to know
> what you're saying,
> they would have to be unaware of what the correct
> "magic words" are
> supposed to be: ""Even though I have this headache,
> I totally accept
> myself." Would "Though I actually have this
> headache, I absolutely
> accept myself" be a "control" because it's not the
> same words?

The exact words are not important. It's the focusing
on the problem and accepting yourself while tapping
that's important.

> If, instead of "tapping" near the eye, nose, collar
> bone, underarm, on
> the fingers, and a point on the hand, we tapped near
> the eyebrow, lip,
> neck, and elbow -- would that be a satisfactory
> "control"?

I'd have to see where.

> (Aside: I'm suspecting that this is a joke, though
> April 1 has passed.
> That anyone who can spell and operate a computer,
> actually believes that
> just saying magical words and tapping can cure a
> headache, has to be
> unbelievable.)

Not a very scientific approach.

> (Also aside: If the magic words were spoken in
> French, and the person
> wore gloves or "tapped" using a stick, would it
> still work? I'm trying
> to find out just how silly this can get.)
>
> I'm also trying to imagine how one would find a
> group of people with
> simultaneous headaches, and I'm unable to....

How do they test headache cures?

> This is going to be a hoot when it runs on the web
> page. I just hope
> the readers will believe that I didn't make it
> up....!
>

Just don't forget to post the web site
http://www.emofree.com so people can read the manual
and get the full explanation of how to use the
technique. Then they can judge for themselves.

Pepper

...

From: "James Randi" <randi> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Pepper'" <hey_pep>
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 19:59:43 -0400

Oh, depend on it! The webpage WILL be published! I wouldn't deprive
my
readers of such a hoot!

I'm tired of this now. I want you to get crazy and start claiming that
I won't test this claim, so I'll have the background to ask my readers
whether I should have even entered into a discussion with you....

Please....

James Randi.

...

Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Pepper" <hey_pep> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
To: randi@randi.org


--- James Randi <randi> wrote:
> Oh, depend on it! The webpage WILL be published! I
> wouldn't deprive my
> readers of such a hoot!

Good. Please let me know when you do it.

>
> I'm tired of this now. I want you to get crazy and
> start claiming that
> I won't test this claim,

Are you going to test the claim?


so I'll have the background
> to ask my readers
> whether I should have even entered into a discussion
> with you....
>
> Please....
>
> James Randi.

It's become clear to me that you're not really
interested in what is right or true.

Pepper

...

From: "James Randi" <randi> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Pepper'" <hey_pep>
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:16:48 -0400

Probably next week it will appear on the web page -- the 15th.

James Randi.


...

Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 09:46:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Pepper" <hey_pep> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
To: randi@randi.org

Good. From the start you tried to make this a
personality contest between the two of us, just
putting me down. Yawn. I'm just interested in the
truth. I don't care if those who read your site think
I'm the stupidest thing to ever walk the Earth, or
even if I AM the stupidest thing to have ever walked
the Earth, I am not the topic, EFT is. I just hope
they go to the site, read the info, and test the
technique for themselves.

And now I know why nobody has won the million bucks.

Pepper

...

From: "James Randi" <randi> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Pepper'" <hey_pep>
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:20:27 -0400

Enjoy your delusions.

James Randi.

...

Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Pepper" <hey_pep> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
To: randi@randi.org

And they would be what, exactly?

Pepper


...

From: "James Randi" <randi> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Pepper'" <hey_pep>
Subject: RE: Would this count for the million bucks?
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:51:52 -0400

Your choice.... That you now "know why nobody has won the million
bucks," or that saying magic words and tapping will cure headaches....

James Randi.

...

Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 12:45:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Pepper" <hey_pep> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
Subject: Your basic dishonesty
To: randi@randi.org

From your site:

http://www.randi.org/jr/040805how.html#1

Ms. Wagner of Whole Foods says:
"For balance, I also looked at the National Center for
Homeopathy's website
http://www.homeopathic.org/controlled.htm), which gave the
obviously differing view."

You said:
""Differing," yes, but no proof other than anecdotal,
Ms. Wagner. No number of stories will make up for a
good set of scientific data."

WTF!? Just click on the link, it shows controlled
studies in peer reviewed journals. Including Lancet!

Why go after Whole Foods? Homeopathy is approved by
the FDA. Why shouldn't they sell FDA approved
treatments? If you don't think they are useful, don't
buy them. Duh. But why shouldn't other people have the
option?

Pepper

...

From: "James Randi" <randi> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: "'Pepper'" <hey_pep>
Subject: RE: Your basic dishonesty
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:05:20 -0400

Again, another delusion of yours -- that you obviously enjoy.

If ANY homeopathic claim were demonstrated for us, we'd give the
million-dollar prize. NO HOMEOPATH has ever applied. Why do you
suppose....?

"Pepper," I'm busy getting the material together that we exchanged
during the week, to use on my web page next week. You're trying to get
off the subject now, so our correspondence is at an end.

'Bye. You're blocked.

James Randi.

[Winston]

You are Pepper? Why did you have this conversation with Randi? I thought you were on his side?

I told you that he is not a truth seeker. I knew that back in the 90's. I talked to Randi on the phone for about an hour about John Benneth and the paranormal. Benneth applied as a homeopath back in 1999. So Randi is lying when he says that no homeopath has applied.

Randi is intelligent and spoke very fast and well. But he isn't a truth seeker and denies evidence. He hasn't even spent the night in a haunted house or castle. lol

He just denies and denies. That's his job.

People believe what they want. Very few are open honest truth seekers who seek evidence.

[woodwater]

You are Pepper? Why did you have this conversation with Randi? I thought you were on his side?

I told you that he is not a truth seeker. I knew that back in the 90's. I talked to Randi on the phone for about an hour about John Benneth and the paranormal. Benneth applied as a homeopath back in 1999. So Randi is lying when he says that no homeopath has applied.

Randi is intelligent and spoke very fast and well. But he isn't a truth seeker and denies evidence. He hasn't even spent the night in a haunted house or castle. lol

He just denies and denies. That's his job.

People believe what they want. Very few are open honest truth seekers who seek evidence.

im not peppr, just quoting

[Winston]

Where did Pepper post all this? On what forum? How do you know him?