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Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Discuss religion and spirituality topics.

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TruthSeeker
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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » January 5th, 2019, 12:11 am

Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » January 5th, 2019, 12:12 am

Fact is, you can't be saved without true repentance - turning from your sins.

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Neo
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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » January 5th, 2019, 12:15 am

TruthSeeker wrote:
January 5th, 2019, 12:11 am
Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
All a person has to do is repent from unbelief to believe the gospel. There is a repentance of sin, and then there is repentance of mind. Salvation occurs in the heart and mind.

Besides that, those are not true salvation verses. As I've stated before elsewhere, a salvation verse has a structure based on key words which include: faith/belief, saved/justified, righteousness/salvation, regeneration/born of God/born again, eternal life/everlasting life.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » January 5th, 2019, 12:30 am

No, they are salvation verses. All of them.

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Neo
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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » January 5th, 2019, 3:36 am

God repents by changing His mind, also known as a change of heart:


Jeremiah 26:13 KJV Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; and the Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Amos 7:6 KJV The Lord repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord God.

Jonah 3:9 KJV Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

Jonah 3:10 KJV And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

For anyone other than the one who was posting to me, repentance isn't always about "repentance from/of sin." In terms of salvation, it is usually referring to the same repentance that God does, that is a change of heart, or change of mind. In the case of salvation, that is a change of mind from believing in vanity, false religions, or a change in heart away from atheism, to placing our faith in Christ and believing in Christ.

Repent and believe is the same as saying Change your mind and believe in Christ.

Whoever believes in Christ receives the remission of sins. This is the repentance. Believing in Christ is the repentance; from believing the vanity and lies of the world that distract away from believing in Christ, to putting our faith in Christ.

Acts 10:43 KJV To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Believing in Christ is the repentance, from unbelief to belief; the change of heart needed. Believe in your heart onto righteousness/salvation.

John 3:16 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is the reconciliation.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » January 6th, 2019, 12:36 am

Neo is part of some bizarre sect that believes that salvation is possible without repentance. It is not.

https://bible.org/article/why-saving-fa ... repentance
The call to faith, however, also includes a call to repentance. Indeed, saving faith cannot exist without repentance.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » January 6th, 2019, 12:38 am

In other words, repentance has two meanings:

1. The one everyone knows is turning from sin to keep the commandments.
2. The one few people know about is simply a change of mind or a change of heart.

We also know a few other things:
1. God wants everyone to go to heaven. So He has made salvation simple and easy.
2. Christ paid the entire penalty for everyone's sins.
3. Christ was perfect and kept the entirety of the commandments, which is why salvation is without works.
4. Repent to be saved cannot be about turning from sin, because it defeats the consistency of the rest of the Bible which teaches us that:
  • a. Salvation is by faith/belief alone
  • b. Keeping the commandments is work.
  • c. No flesh will be justified by the law/keeping the commandments.
  • d. salvation is free.
  • e. salvation is a gift.
  • f. God imputes righteousness without works.
5. Knowing the multiplicity of verses that state all we must do to be saved is to believe, and knowing the alternate definition of repent (change of mind), it therefore follows that repent to believe means simply change your mind to believe in Christ, in terms of salvation.

Christ did all the work. Everywhere it says salvation is not by work but by faith. Therefore where it says repent, it cannot mean keep the commandments to be saved, because that violates all the other scripture which say salvation is not by works. It must therefore be by believing, which is the change of mind, which is the repentance, the alternate and lesser known definition.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » January 6th, 2019, 12:48 am

Repentance from sin has nothing to do with salvation:

Romans 5:8 KJV But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ died for sinners, naturally.

Romans 5:6 KJV For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 3:10 KJV As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:23 KJV For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Besides that, we trust on the completed works of Christ, not own our own works, which is trusting in our own righteousness. There are many apostate forms of Christianity which teach and preach work salvation. Christianity is about faith in Christ, not faith in our own works.

However a person must keep the commandments to please God. As I posted clearly on previous pages, salvation is outside the commandments. Christ conquered the law and commandments for salvation by keeping every commandment for us, which only the Son of God, the Messiah can do. This is why salvation is NOT BY WORKS. Christ did the work already and it is finished. Trusting in works is not trusting in Christ but making the person a co-equal with the Messiah, which is not possible.

Please read Romans chapters 3, 4 and 5 or the short book of Galatians, or just look at Romans chapter 10 and Ephesians 2:8-9.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » January 6th, 2019, 7:24 pm

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

You see, you can't have salvation without repentance. Truth faith brings forth repentance because when someone has true faith the Holy Spirit comes upon them and convicts them of theirs sins and that person repents unto salvation.

There is never a situation when someone has true faith in Christ and then does not repent of their sins. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23)

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » January 6th, 2019, 7:36 pm

Repentance from sin is only a trap which will take those who've fallen into it to sheol, if a person trusts in repentance to save them (trusting in their own works to keep the commandments). Repentance from sin is necessary if the person is in sin, just as keeping the commandments is necessary. The difference is, the person doesn't combine their faith in Christ with repentance from sin or keeping the commandments as far as salvation is concerned.

The person's full and complete trust needs to be put in Christ. That's what salvation is. Repentance from sin is not a part of salvation. Christ saves, not the person refraining from sin. If a person had to stop sinning to get saved, then many people would not receive eternal life. Christ died for us while we were yet sinners and moreover while we were enemies.

Salvation happens in a moment. Repentance from sin is a slow, gradual process of turning away from sin, and it cannot happen in an instant.

In addition, the commandments are both numerous and deep. Many people may never come to the full knowledge of the depth of the commandments before they leave this world. Many people may never completely get sin out of their lives. Salvation is by faith, not works. Many more people would end up in sheol, if repentance from sin for salvation was required. (And the whole idea of repentance from sin for salvation implies Christ-like perfection as part of being saved, which is impossible, because everyone has sin whether they are saved or unsaved.)

For example, a person who uses profanity and/or smokes cigarettes, or who abuses alcohol, can get saved. Later on, they may choose to repent of profanity, cigarette smoking and/or alcohol abuse.

If repentance were necessary to be saved, then we wouldn't need Christ. We'd each and everyone who gets saved be Christ in perfection. Repentance from sin for salvation is a major snare. It is delusional. Everyone has sin, except Christ.

Galatians 2:21 KJV I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. If salvation came by keeping the commandments instead of faith, then we'd each be our own redeemer/Christ/Messiah and we wouldn't need Jesus.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » January 18th, 2019, 5:02 pm

Cleansing from sin continues after salvation (in the form of repentance, not salvation):

Philippians 1:6 KJV Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Last edited by Neo on January 18th, 2019, 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » January 18th, 2019, 5:41 pm

Neo wrote:
January 18th, 2019, 5:02 pm
Cleansing from sin continues after salvation:
No it doesn't. Cleansing happens at the point of salvation.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The finished work was done on Calvary.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

It's a finished work.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by TruthSeeker » January 18th, 2019, 6:13 pm

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

So you see, He does perform the work(s).

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Neo » January 18th, 2019, 9:05 pm

TruthSeeker wrote:
January 18th, 2019, 5:41 pm
Neo wrote:
January 18th, 2019, 5:02 pm
Cleansing from sin continues after salvation:
No it doesn't. Cleansing happens at the point of salvation.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The finished work was done on Calvary.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

It's a finished work.
You do not even know that you (now) argue against your own (previous) argument. If the work is finished by Christ already, then salvation is not by works. Christ has already completed the work. You are merely proving that salvation is not by works, and therefore not by repentance of sin.

As for the repentance from sin, many people will continue that process for a long time after they get saved.

What is the name of your Christian denomination? I know you said predetermination.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: Was there a historical Jesus Christ? If so, who was he?

Post by Winston » June 12th, 2019, 10:20 am

If any of you are interested in finding out who the historical Jesus is, I recommend this scholar named Reza Aslan. He is very neutral and unbiased and seeks balanced truth without any axe to grind and without agenda. He is also a NY Times bestselling author. I've heard his talks and presentations on YouTube and his material is very informative and well balanced. And he sounds very articulate and sensible and comes across as a genuine truth seeker. He So I feel he's definitely worth listening to.

Here is his new bestseller about the historical Jesus called "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth". In it he uses facts and logic to piece together who the historical Jesus really was most likely. His conclusions are very similar to another best selling author and top secular scholar named Dr. Bart Ehrman, who is very famous in the Biblical scholarship world.

https://www.amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Time ... 812981480/

Image
#1 NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLER • “A lucid, intelligent page-turner” (Los Angeles Times) that challenges long-held assumptions about Jesus, from the host of Believer

Two thousand years ago, an itinerant Jewish preacher walked across the Galilee, gathering followers to establish what he called the “Kingdom of God.” The revolutionary movement he launched was so threatening to the established order that he was executed as a state criminal. Within decades after his death, his followers would call him God.

Sifting through centuries of mythmaking, Reza Aslan sheds new light on one of history’s most enigmatic figures by examining Jesus through the lens of the tumultuous era in which he lived. Balancing the Jesus of the Gospels against the historical sources, Aslan describes a man full of conviction and passion, yet rife with contradiction. He explores the reasons the early Christian church preferred to promulgate an image of Jesus as a peaceful spiritual teacher rather than a politically conscious revolutionary. And he grapples with the riddle of how Jesus understood himself, the mystery that is at the heart of all subsequent claims about his divinity.

Zealot yields a fresh perspective on one of the greatest stories ever told even as it affirms the radical and transformative nature of Jesus’ life and mission.

Praise for Zealot

“Riveting . . . Aslan synthesizes Scripture and scholarship to create an original account.”—The New Yorker

“Fascinatingly and convincingly drawn . . . Aslan may come as close as one can to respecting those who revere Jesus as the peace-loving, turn-the-other-cheek, true son of God depicted in modern Christianity, even as he knocks down that image.”—The Seattle Times

“[Aslan’s] literary talent is as essential to the effect of Zealot as are his scholarly and journalistic chops. . . . A vivid, persuasive portrait.”—Salon

“This tough-minded, deeply political book does full justice to the real Jesus, and honors him in the process.”—San Francisco Chronicle

“A special and revealing work, one that believer and skeptic alike will find surprising, engaging, and original.”—Jon Meacham, Pulitzer Prize–winning author of Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power

“Compulsively readable . . . This superb work is highly recommended.”—Publishers Weekly (starred review)
Also here are some videos where Reza Aslan talks about his new book "Zealot" about the historical Jesus.



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