The Truth Behind Islam

[Yohan]

Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world.

"Indonesia does not have a law against apostasy, and the constitution provides for freedom of religion, accords "all persons shall be free to choose and to practice the religion of his/her choice"."

Horseshit.

MrPeabody,
You need to wear rose-colored glasses, if you call this 'freedom of religion in Indonesia'.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/09/worl ... islam.html

Full report see link above

JAKARTA, Indonesia — An Indonesian court found the Christian governor of the country’s capital, Jakarta, guilty of blasphemy against Islam on Tuesday, sentencing him to two years in prison in a case widely seen as a test of religious tolerance and free speech.

The governor, Basuki Tjahaja Purnama, was defeated last month by Anies Baswedan, a former minister of education and culture, in an election in which the blasphemy case, and religion, was a major issue.

Mr. Basuki began his sentence on Tuesday. Deputy Governor Djarot Saiful Hidayat is to serve as acting governor until October, when Mr. Anies takes office.

Blasphemy is a crime in Indonesia, a secular democracy with the world’s largest Muslim population. The sentence was harsher than what prosecutors had asked for; they had recommended two years’ probation on a lesser charge, which would have spared Mr. Basuki prison time.

.....

He had been leading in the polls last year, but in September his campaign faltered when he tried to address attacks from Muslim hard-liners who argued that the Quran prohibited Muslims from voting for a non-Muslim. Mr. Basuki said those who made that argument were misleading Muslims, a statement that was interpreted by some as insulting the Quran.

Interesting, the Quran prohibits Muslims from voting for a non-Muslim, and if you questions that as a Christian you are guilty of blasphemy...

[MrPeabody]

Fundamentalism is a recent phenomena and reaction to interference from the West. Taken from your article:

"The blasphemy law dates from 1965, and only a handful of people were prosecuted under its terms during the next 40 years, according to Andreas Harsono, an Indonesia researcher for Human Rights Watch."

[gsjackson]

No Christian orientated movement, from Mormons to Jehovahs, from Catholics to Orthodox, from Baptist to Presbyterian, has anything in their teachings which will justify such a mass killing.

This is really myopic vision. Christian countries kill in mass all the time. They kill with organized armies. Over 1 million children died in the boycott of Iraq. And then you have the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Good grief. Trump threatened to nuke North Korea.

Oh, come on. I thought you'd go with the Crusades, but you pick actions spurred entirely by Talmudic Jews who despise Christianity. I defy you to demonstrate any Christian connection to or influence on those invasions whatsoever, other than the nutjob Christian Zionists like John Hagee who ought to just go ahead and call themselves Jews.

And Yohan's point was entirely about religious doctrine that encourages war. You'll find none of that in the New Testament you disparage.

Yes, but what about the Old Testament? It contains passages which advocate incredible levels of violence.

And the Old Testament is an indispensable part of Christianity, according to no less an authority than Jesus Christ (John 10:35):

http://www.cuf.org/2008/11/the-old-test ... rid-of-it/

Good point, and good link, which answers your question by noting that Old Testament violence, as well as Jesus's prescriptions to resist forcefully anything that makes you sin, were about saving souls in cultures that had become completely degenerate. Regardless of how much anyone today may consider that a justifiable reason for violence, it is clearly of a different nature from the Talmudic wars launched today by nominally Christian nations (emphasis on "nominally," Mr. Peabody). That is all about Jews' domination of a world filled with people they regard as their inferiors.

I'm anything but an expert on the Bible, but I think there are several passages in the Old Testament that forecast Jesus and his evangelical career ("the word became flesh"). Jesus clearly seemed to see himself as fulfilling this scripture, toward the goal -- I would agree with Paul -- of superseding "the law" and replacing it with love. I'm also no expert on religious history, but I have the impression Jesus was the first to introduce the principle of divine forgiveness into human history and provide an avenue to escape the psychological prison of the law, which we all fall into in one way or another.

This is not a story conducive to continual war and violence, unlike the Talmud.

[gsjackson]

No Christian orientated movement, from Mormons to Jehovahs, from Catholics to Orthodox, from Baptist to Presbyterian, has anything in their teachings which will justify such a mass killing.

This is really myopic vision. Christian countries kill in mass all the time. They kill with organized armies. Over 1 million children died in the boycott of Iraq. And then you have the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Good grief. Trump threatened to nuke North Korea.

Oh, come on. I thought you'd go with the Crusades, but you pick actions spurred entirely by Talmudic Jews who despise Christianity. I defy you to demonstrate any Christian connection to or influence on those invasions whatsoever, other than the nutjob Christian Zionists like John Hagee who ought to just go ahead and call themselves Jews.

And Yohan's point was entirely about religious doctrine that encourages war. You'll find none of that in the New Testament you disparage.

Yes, but what about the Old Testament? It contains passages which advocate incredible levels of violence.

And the Old Testament is an indispensable part of Christianity, according to no less an authority than Jesus Christ (John 10:35):

http://www.cuf.org/2008/11/the-old-test ... rid-of-it/

Good point, and good link, which answers your question by noting that Old Testament violence, as well as Jesus's prescriptions to resist forcefully anything that makes you sin, were about saving souls in cultures that had become completely degenerate. Regardless of how much anyone today may consider that a justifiable reason for violence, it is clearly of a different nature from the Talmudic wars launched today by nominally Christian nations (emphasis on "nominally," Mr. Peabody). That is all about Jews' domination of a world filled with people they regard as their inferiors.

I'm anything but an expert on the Bible, but I think there are several passages in the Old Testament that forecast Jesus and his evangelical career ("the word became flesh"). Jesus clearly seemed to see himself as fulfilling this scripture, toward the goal -- I would agree with Paul -- of superseding "the law" and replacing it with love. I'm also no expert on religious history, but I have the impression Jesus was the first to introduce the principle of divine forgiveness into human history and provide an avenue to escape the psychological prison of the law, which we all fall into in one way or another.

This is not a story conducive to continual war and violence, unlike the Talmud.

[Yohan]

Turkey is not part of the EU. The process for accession stopped due to Erdogan being a Muslim prick.

This is correct, politically Turkey does not fit into EU, it is more an Asian Islamic country and only a small part of Turkey is located in Europe, a large part of its population is Islamic orientated, and there are only small groups of Christians.

I don't know of course who is this user 'Misko_Varesanovic' but nobody who is not from SouthEast Europe will choose 'Misko' as user name, this name is common male first name in Southern Slavic region. Also 'Varesanovic' is a name from that Slavic area, and as he is defending Islam so much, I can only guess he is from Bosnia/Herzegovina, where about out of 4 million people 2 million are Muslim, the other 2 millions are mostly Catholics and Orthodox and there are no problems with churches and mosques located near to each other everywhere.

I was working 5 years for the former Yugoslavia, among Serbs, Croats, Slovenians, Mazedonians and even one time my boss was a Bosnian Muslim and I did not know that until I noticed that 'Tariq' is an Arab male first name and heard him accidentally to speak also - beside 5 other languages - in rather fluent Arabic with a visitor. His wife was Orthodox. Nobody cares in that area who is dating who, Bosnia is Europe, not Asia or Africa.

I guess, 'Misko' - maybe even his real name - knows probably only about Islam in Eastern Europe, like Bulgaria or former Yugoslavia and maybe Islam in EU, Canada and USA (if he is one of these many immigrants who left Eastern Europe for a job and prefers to be paid in USD and Euro and not in Dinar).

He has obviously no idea what Islamic rule means outside of the Western world.

[Yohan]

"The blasphemy law dates from 1965..."

What date did you expect? Up to 1945, end of WWII, Indonesia was a Dutch colony and blasphemy laws did not exist.

[MrPeabody]

"Islamic-Buddhist dialogue"

http://thubtenchodron.org/2011/06/buddhism-meets-islam/

There are still some people in the world looking for solutions, rather than fear mongering to divide us.

[Misko_Varesanovic]

About Iraq - it was Iraq which started the conflict by invading Kuwait. This is nowhere disputed.

That was in 1990. The 2003 invasion of Iraq - which has resulted in the deaths of over one million people - was not precipitated by that country's invasion of Kuwait. That conflict was about a lot of other things, not least Iraq's decision to denominate oil sales in euros.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq ... 7920080130

[Misko_Varesanovic]

"The blasphemy law dates from 1965..."

What date did you expect? Up to 1945, end of WWII, Indonesia was a Dutch colony and blasphemy laws did not exist.

Actually, there are remarkable similarities between Indonesia's blasphemy law and Holland's...blasphemy law. The latter was in force until 2014 and 'punished (by up to three months in jail or a fine of the second category (i.e. up to €3,800) anyone who publicly, orally or in writing or depiction, offends religious feelings by scornful blasphemy'. Additionally, the blasphemy laws in both Indonesia and the Netherlands were both passed as explicitly anti-communist moves (in the 1960s and 1930s respectively).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law

https://sites.northwestern.edu/lawrelig ... tswxaa.pdf

[Misko_Varesanovic]

Turks - who are by far the largest Muslim-majority nationality within the EU - have experienced net migration back to Turkey since c.2010, similar to Mexicans in the US. They don't all want to come here - that's a total myth. Why would you want to leave a country which averaged 6.7% growth/year between 2010 and 2016 to come to a bloc where you face discrimination in a stagnant jobs market?

Turkey is not part of the EU. The process for accession stopped due to Erdogan being a Muslim prick.

Turkey is not the same as people of Turkish nationality, of which there are a few million in the EU.

[Misko_Varesanovic]

He has obviously no idea what Islamic rule means outside of the Western world.

'Qatar officially has a higher proportion of female students than anywhere else on earth. The ratio of women to men is a staggering 6.66, even though just 44% of women are in further education.'

http://uk.businessinsider.com/world-eco ... -300000-18

[Misko_Varesanovic]

"Islamic-Buddhist dialogue"

http://thubtenchodron.org/2011/06/buddhism-meets-islam/

There are still some people in the world looking for solutions, rather than fear mongering to divide us.

This is the majority of people, but unfortunately, there's no money in it for the 'defence' industry or the 'security' industry - and these companies often have the same stakeholders.

[Yohan]

'Qatar officially has a higher proportion of female students than anywhere else on earth. The ratio of women to men is a staggering 6.66, even though just 44% of women are in further education.'

'a higher proportion of female students than anywhere else on earth'

Maybe this is the reason why Qatar is performing so badly ...

https://dohanews.co/report-qatar-ranks- ... potential/

More than two-thirds (68 percent) of Qatar’s students didn’t pass the basic PISA levels in math and science, which equate to a score of 420.

Students in Qatar continue to be among the world’s poorest performers, according to a new global education ranking that scored the nation behind most of its regional and international peers.

The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) has published its biggest-ever league table of educational attainment in 76 countries, which for the first time includes under-developed and developing nations, as well as richer states.

The report, Universal basic skills: what countries stand to gain, examined how representative samples of 15-year-olds performed in math and science tests, ranking them relative to their peers in more than a third of the world’s nations.

Qatar came in 68th place overall. Coming only ahead of Oman (72nd), it was among the GCC’s poorest performing countries.

None of the Gulf states did particularly well, with all ranking in the bottom half of the index. Students in the UAE came in 45th place, Bahrain followed at 57th and Saudi Arabia in 66th position. Kuwait did not appear in the index.

Ghana came in last overall, in 76th place, while the rankings’ top five spots were all taken by Asian nations, including Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, Japan and Taiwan.

Maybe it also should be noticed that only about 300.000 people in Qatar are natives, while 2.3 million people are foreigners, doing most of the work in this little corner of the world.

[Yohan]

About Iraq - it was Iraq which started the conflict by invading Kuwait. This is nowhere disputed.

That was in 1990. The 2003 invasion of Iraq - which has resulted in the deaths of over one million people - was not precipitated by that country's invasion of Kuwait. That conflict was about a lot of other things, not least Iraq's decision to denominate oil sales in euros.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq ... 7920080130

Iraqi politicians with Obama on the other side had plenty of time - 8 years - to regulate the situation, but they totally failed.

About these 1 million dead Iraqi, there are plenty of estimates of Iraqi casualtries from as low as 87.000 up to as high as 1.033.000 people - from various institutes, nobody knows what is true and what not.

However, not all these people were killed by US-troops, this is for sure. Muslims are also fighting against each other all the time in that region. ISIS has to be mentioned of course too.

To blame only USA for the chaos and killings in Muslim countries is totally wrong.

In Iraq, there were or still active are about 70.000 Kurdish fighters and UK at that time sent over 45000 troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War# ... _estimates

[Yohan]

Turks - who are by far the largest Muslim-majority nationality within the EU - have experienced net migration back to Turkey since c.2010, similar to Mexicans in the US. They don't all want to come here - that's a total myth. Why would you want to leave a country which averaged 6.7% growth/year between 2010 and 2016 to come to a bloc where you face discrimination in a stagnant jobs market?

Turkey is not part of the EU. The process for accession stopped due to Erdogan being a Muslim prick.

Turkey is not the same as people of Turkish nationality, of which there are a few million in the EU.

This is an interesting comment - poor Muslims, Turks, facing discrimination in EU...

I can only laugh when I read this, as I am also an immigrant, coming from Europe to Asia. I can only laugh and it happens from time to time, when some visitors from Europe or Northern America are asking me, IF and WHY I do not feel discriminated in Japan.

The point is, if you are a foreigner in a country, you have to adapt your way of life - do, what the locals are doing.

Of course if you are an immigrant from a Muslim country and DEMAND to continue your way of life as before and demand special rights (shariah courts, halal food, construction of mosques, Quran schools, burka etc. etc.) and INSIST locals MUST accept your customs, while you are not willing to integrate at all, you will find yourself isolated, discriminated and asked why you are here - as it is not your country - and why you are not going home.

About Turks and also Iranians, I met such ones and such ones.

Some left, going home - but many others admit, that in their own countries 'everything is f****d' up and prefer to stay with the infidels.

Nobody can deny, that so far the number of immigrants from Muslim countries who want to enter Western countries exceeds by far the number of former immigrants who prefer to go back home.