Why are PUAs respected?

[Yohan]

Obviously most PUA tactics are bullshit, but the question I am posing is why is the idea of pick up artistry seen as acceptable even if it did work?

A PUA is approaching women and is presenting his stories made out of fantasy to impress them and to make them feeling that he is so important for them.

Any PUA is acting similar to an actor when talking to a woman. It's not about himself, not about how he is in real life. It's like playing a role in a movie.

Feminists expect men to woo women, they do not expect men however to tell the truth about their daily life, as this might be boring.

Women like to be entertained, they like to listen to exciting stories, they don't care if they are true or not.

Once a Western woman told me the most important for the first contact with a man is to feel he is 'fun'. The PUA tries to be 'fun'.

His real life is not important for the first contact He might be a violent criminal, a gambler always out of money, HIV+, etc.

The honest man, who has crazy honest ideas - to say something he has a stable job and he is looking for a long-term relationship with a girl - will be served as the very last one, or probably not be served at all.

He will be only served by a worn-out woman full with drugs, who was beaten up and kicked out by her 50th or 70th thug-boyfriend or so.

[publicduende]

Not sure panhandling or begging is an apt comparison Cornfed. Begging never works with women and that's the opposite of what PUA teaches anyway. I don't have too much of a problem with these guys. Obviously there's a lot of snakeoil, but some are legit. I'd even include Roosh. People trying to get rich quick is respected. Just look at rap culture, it's the whole zero to hero thing where these guys wearing gold chains and living in mansions write songs about how they used to be poor. This guy's good and he writes a lot of stuff on race you'd probably agree with Cornfed:

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/05/ ... n-a-photo/

This is a typically American thing. In Europe we would certainly "understand" or "tolerate" people obsessed about conjuring up the Next Big Thing and making money quick, but we would also look at the quality of their ideas, things like its effectiveness and benefit to society.

At least panhandling is a passive activity that potentially only damages the chances of those farther down the street.

What we are talking about here is proponents of both a product that is clearly a scam, and an underpinning ideology that has no other purpose than pitting men and women one against the other, as if gender wars was the solution to (their definition of) feminism, bad social policy and their own sexual frustrations.

Look no further than Return of Kings. A lot of these people bother penning at least a new article a week as side freebies to publicise their pay-per-view jobs as game/fitness/life coaches. They do "consulting", they have their little ePamphlets to sell. Even if I were a lonely and sexual frustrated young man desperate to try something new, I would still be aware, very aware of people who are trying to purport some ideas as genuine just so they can slip some little product between the lines and charge you. Their advice would be biased at best.

These PUA-ish hacks aren't doing any favour to the community, not even their primary audience. They would sell their moms and leverage every event reminiscent of the kind of male frustration they purport to combat (as Roosh did recently writing this bad taste monument of an article about how game would have saved Elliot Rodger and his 6 victims).

If you guys feel nothing wrong with these snake oil salesmen fuelling the paranoias, narcissism and sense of entitlement of gullible sex-starved young men with a penchant for philosophical speculation, well, maybe that's the American way.

[abcdavid01]

I think you guys have a warped view of what PUA is. I'm not into pickup artistry, but I read Return of Kings because it has good articles. A lot of them are the same message as Happier Abroad. They've had articles about how great women in Siberia are or the benefits of getting a wife from SE Asia. They don't explicitly advertise in the articles either, just have sponsor links at the side of the site. No different than happier abroad. I remember earlier this year they published an article asking for users to write for them. A recruitment basically. Well in this writer recruitment article they gave examples of what not to submit by linking to articles they had published in the past. So Return of Kings isn't afraid to call out itself for publishing bullshit sometimes. As for pickup techniques, I just get the feeling you're basing things off of caricatures about cheesy lines. There's some bullshitters, yes, but a lot of the advice is pretty effective with women. It's not nearly as earthshattering as they make it out to be, but they're teaching it to guys who are basically idiots with women. Like thinking PUA is panhandling at all, that's a total misconception. No PUA would tell you to beg for sex because they know that never works. Personally, I don't think sex should be that much of a priority, but that doesn't mean their views are wrong regarding women and society.

[fschmidt]

No abcdavid, Return of Kings does not have the same message as Happier Abroad. Both groups may understand reality, but they react differently. Return of Kings accepts the game as it is, and encourages men to play the game with more dedication. In a sense, they are the ultimate members of modern culture. Happier Abroad rejects the game because we recognize that it is a bad game to play. MGTOW also shares this attitude, but they a navel gazing morons with no alternative. Happier Abroad offers a real alternative in going abroad.

I agree PUA isn't panhandling. Panhandling is more dignified. What PUA is is learning the art of being a con-man. It is dedicating one's life to sleaze for no other benefit than sex. While I understand dedicating one's life to sleaze in order to become very wealthy, doing this just for sex strikes me as pathetic.

[Cornfed]

Why is the very clear issue of this thread being constantly and stupidly misunderstood? The issue is one of traditional society vs. modern society. In traditional society, men got sex by doing stuff which benefited (at least theoretically) the whole of society, such as getting married and helping to raise children, protecting and caring for bondmaids, earning money to pay hoes and such like. That was seen as honorable, and it generally benefited society, in the same way that expecting men to do useful work to earn money generally benefits society. On the other hand, men who got sex by charming, bamboozling or otherwise persuading females to spread their legs for nothing tangible in return were reviled as social parasites. Now the situation has reversed. The situation is still much the same with regard to other resources. If I said that I could do a couple of days work for a sum of money but my aged father, soft touch neighbor or a guy I was stringing along over the Internet would give it to me for nothing, so that was what I was opting for, then most people would think I was a parasitical jerk. If on the other hand if I said that while I could pay a hoe for sex, a skank I knew who was a soft touch for my gift of the gab and would spread her legs for free if I put the moves on her, most people would think I was cool. Why is this? How does this mentality help society?

[abcdavid01]

I said some of the articles are in line with Happier Abroad's message, but I'm not a PUA. And many of ROK's articles advocate going abroad. Your criticism is quite valid,but they're not nearly as bad as male feminists for example or men's rights activists. Again, you're basing things on a caricature. Most of what ROK writes isn't even about how to get women. That's only like 10% and many of them say the ultimate advice is to concentrate making yourself a better person first and for your own benefit, not that of women.

[abcdavid01]

Why is the very clear issue of this thread being constantly and stupidly misunderstood? The issue is one of traditional society vs. modern society. In traditional society, men got sex by doing stuff which benefited (at least theoretically) the whole of society, such as getting married and helping to raise children, protecting and caring for bondmaids, earning money to pay hoes and such like. That was seen as honorable, and it generally benefited society, in the same way that expecting men to do useful work to earn money generally benefits society. On the other hand, men who got sex by charming, bamboozling or otherwise persuading females to spread their legs for nothing tangible in return were reviled as social parasites. Now the situation has reversed. The situation is still much the same with regard to other resources. If I said that I could do a couple of days work for a sum of money but my aged father, soft touch neighbor or a guy I was stringing along over the Internet would give it to me for nothing, so that was what I was opting for, then most people would think I was a parasitical jerk. If on the other hand if I said that while I could pay a hoe for sex, a skank I knew who was a soft touch for my gift of the gab and would spread her legs for free if I put the moves on her, most people would think I was cool. Why is this? How does this mentality help society?

No, I got what you were saying. But the difference is that the charmers in those traditional societies were preying on virtuous women. PUAs aren't because there aren't any virtuous women in the first place. It's seen as cool because there's no other option. Besides just leaving of course, which is what HA advocates. It's also what a lot of ROK articles advocate. HA doesn't materially help society either because we're advocating leaving it to collapse.

I don't have too much of a problem with PUAs because almost all women in America act like whores anyway. If a pua took pride in taking a girl's virginity I'd be pissed, but other than that there's not much lost. It's illegal to pay for prostitution here after all. Yes, they're not helping to build society by getting married and having traditional families, but neither are we by leaving. Happier Abroad is all about abandoning corrupt American/Western society and PUAs are about raping and pillaging it. PUAs aren't preying on anyone because they're just targeting whores.

[Maverick]

I think you guys have a warped view of what PUA is. I'm not into pickup artistry, but I read Return of Kings because it has good articles. A lot of them are the same message as Happier Abroad. They've had articles about how great women in Siberia are or the benefits of getting a wife from SE Asia. They don't explicitly advertise in the articles either, just have sponsor links at the side of the site. No different than happier abroad. I remember earlier this year they published an article asking for users to write for them. A recruitment basically. Well in this writer recruitment article they gave examples of what not to submit by linking to articles they had published in the past. So Return of Kings isn't afraid to call out itself for publishing bullshit sometimes. As for pickup techniques, I just get the feeling you're basing things off of caricatures about cheesy lines. There's some bullshitters, yes, but a lot of the advice is pretty effective with women. It's not nearly as earthshattering as they make it out to be, but they're teaching it to guys who are basically idiots with women. Like thinking PUA is panhandling at all, that's a total misconception. No PUA would tell you to beg for sex because they know that never works. Personally, I don't think sex should be that much of a priority, but that doesn't mean their views are wrong regarding women and society.

This is the view that I believe is most correct when it comes to PUA.

First off, I do not believe that PUA is making things worse. I do not believe that it causes women to act worse. I think women would act like this either way, due to feminism and conditioning, and that PUA is a REACTION to this.

As a guy that used to pretty involved in this for years (and still hang out with some guys I met through PUA), I will admit that the industry itself is mostly bullshit. A good majority of the guys that are in this are tools. However, I've met enough guys to know that there are some real hardcore players out there that really mastered American women. I've met them and seen them in action. Also, I got to know them well enough that I know they used to be losers that never got girls before. So it definitely does happen. However, these guys are not the ones that are selling shit. They're usually more on the downlow, to the point that you wouldn't know that they're PUAs until you got to know them.

Also, for the record, I'm a big fan of Roosh V and ROK. I think they have awesome insight into what's going on in the US. Of course, I like sites like this and Planet-Love more because my goals are more aligned with the goals here, but Roosh's forums can definitely be a valuable resource if you dig a bit (much like this forum lol).

Just my .02.

[Cornfed]

However, I've met enough guys to know that there are some real hardcore players out there that really mastered American women. I've met them and seen them in action. Also, I got to know them well enough that I know they used to be losers that never got girls before. So it definitely does happen.

OK, so why should we respect people who do this, as presumably opposed to people who talk others into giving them free money in preference to earning it?

[Maverick]

However, I've met enough guys to know that there are some real hardcore players out there that really mastered American women. I've met them and seen them in action. Also, I got to know them well enough that I know they used to be losers that never got girls before. So it definitely does happen.

OK, so why should we respect people who do this, as presumably opposed to people who talk others into giving them free money in preference to earning it?

Neither they nor I care if you respect them.

My point is that they exist and it's possible to get to that level.

[Cornfed]

Neither they nor I care if you respect them.

Then don't post in this thread.