Who is More Authentically Conservative? Orthodox Traditionalists or Neo-Traditionalists?

[Outcast9428]

I’m starting to notice that among traditionalists there is a big divide in terms of how exactly people are arriving to their opinions. Orthodox and neo traditionalists come to very similar opinions especially regarding sex, feminism, and gender roles. Our general mission and mindset seem quite different though despite having very similar opinions on each topic.

I think regardless of differences in mindset, we should maintain a mutual respect for one another as we do have a common goal. But it is interesting to point out the differences and I wonder which type of traditionalist people think is more “conservative” so to speak.

Orthodox traditionalists get their traditionalist views almost exclusively from the Bible or from church. It’s pretty simple for them, it’s “this is what the Bible says so do this/don’t do that.” If not that then it’s a very culture based thing for them that they do because everybody around them believes in that.

Neo-traditionalists on the other hand, mainly get their views/opinions from a desire to socially engineer historical eras back into existence. Neo-traditionalists will say “this behavior was common in [insert historical era] therefore you should do it.”

One of the easiest ways to differentiate an orthodox traditionalist from a neo-traditionalist is that an orthodox traditionalist will argue “the Bible says this” whereas a neo-traditionalist will say “people in the 1950s did this.” There’s a lot of overlap since people in the historical past were so motivated to follow the Bible. But I do think there are slight differences in how the two groups approach traditional values.

In all honesty, neo-traditionalists seem more prone to having “blind spots” in their traditionalism if that makes sense. Cornfed for example seems okay with people having rough sex or with men committing adultery. In my case, I’m fairly ok with premarital sex as long as it’s not casual sex. My lack of motivation to care about gay marriage is also a bit of a blind spot in my traditionalism. Although I personally don’t consider it a contradiction because I am a neo-traditionalist. I think a lot of people would consider it to be a blind spot that neo-traditionalists overwhelmingly support legal and available prostitution whereas orthodox traditionalists overwhelmingly oppose prostitution. Neo-traditionalists also tend to be a lot more comfortable cursing and using swear words then orthodox traditionalists are.

At the same time though, orthodox traditionalists tend to have their own blind spots. Neo-traditionalists are overwhelmingly JQed whereas orthodox traditionalists seem hopelessly infatuated with empowering Jewish control. Neo-traditionalists are also a lot more hardcore on the anti-feminism and seem to understand how to destroy it on a much deeper level. Neo-traditionalists tend to be the only ones actually advocating for bringing back things like arranged marriages, hereditary job training, and restoring monarchies and are much more aggressive about wanting the government and it’s laws to reflect traditional values and push conservative propaganda in schools as well as the media.

Neo-traditionalists also are traditional because of a genuine love for those values and strong commitment to restoring those values as the new status quo. In my experience with orthodox traditionalists, some of them genuine love traditional values, but quite a few of them actually consider following a traditional lifestyle to be a burden. For this reason they almost can be more forgiving of people breaking orthodoxy then the neo-traditionalists are who tend to be really fanatical about criticizing what they see as liberal or feminist behavior.

I think orthodox traditionalism is more similar to the actual mindset and behavior of people from the 1950s but neo-traditionalists tend to be more fanatical in their devotion to conservative values so it’s hard to decide which one is more authentically conservative.

[Cornfed]

Orthodox traditionalists get their traditionalist views almost exclusively from the Bible or from church.

Do you mean Eastern Orthodox? Going by the Bible alone isn't enough because the Bible may not cover everything and you need to properly interpret the scriptures and put them into context. A common problem is where people fail to distinguish general laws from general suggestions from instructions for specific groups of people. Hence you would go by scripture, the traditions of our societies that worked and a logical extrapolation of what is necessary for what you are trying to achieve.

Cornfed for example seems okay with people having rough sex or with men committing adultery.

This keeps having to be pointed out. I am not OK with men committing adultery, which is to say having sex with some other man's wife. In every major tradition our people are associated with, a married man having sex with some whore is not adultery.

[fschmidt]

This divide is nonsense. You see a divide because you are focused on modern Christians. There are other religions. The best is for people to consider both history and religion. There is no conflict.

Why are you talking about the 1950s? Traditionalism was lost in the 1920s. I recently watched "The Devil To Pay!" from 1930 and it is depraved.

I follow the Old Testament which supports prostitution and has no problem with husbands having sex outside of marriage. And this matches older traditional cultures include Athens and the Roman Republic. Orthodox traditionalists should include Salafi Muslims, and they are not "hopelessly infatuated with empowering Jewish control" and they are quite "hardcore on the anti-feminism". Maybe you should convert to Islam.

[Outcast9428]

@Cornfed and @fschmidt

When I say orthodox I don’t mean the Orthodox religion. I am using the term orthodox because I notice that neo-traditionalists tend to be a younger crowd who haven’t typically grown up in traditionalist environments. Orthodox traditionalists I name them that because they usually are people who haven’t made as much of a conscious decision to be traditional… They just are. Neo-traditionalists are very deliberate and conscious of their choice.

The terms I used can apply to any country or culture in the world.

The point isn’t to “divide.” I think there’s no reason for why neo-traditionalists and orthodox traditionalists can’t have mutual respect for one another. This thread is just for fun.

[fschmidt]

The most authentic conservative is a man who puts his money where his mouth is and lives a life that is Godly and righteous. In America, @fschmidt has frequently pointed out that there are these Old Order Mennonites, these Amish folks and similar communities that live the truest to Biblical morality. Utah is where you'll find the most authentic conservatives in America, with strict Muslim communities being a close second. You'll find that these communities have a strong sense of togetherness, are close to one another and stand up for those in their groups. They all have very large families. This makes them healthy communities, and they grow more rapidly than other communities. Birth rate and a strong sense of community, with strictly enforced social control, is what makes a healthy community...

Most of the "Neo-Traditionalists" are just tryhard millennials who watched a few episodes of Mad Men on Netflix and think: "Hey, that 1950s stuff is pretty cool lets do that!" Throw in some antisemitic memes from 4chan and there you have it... the Neo-Tradionalist. I'd like to know the number of children the average Neo-Traditionalist has, compared to those closed off, strict, orthodox religious communities. I bet few of these young idealists will ultimately "walk the walk" as well as they "talk the talk".

This I agree with. There are a few exceptions like Varg, but most pseudo-traditionalists are useless. But number of children isn't a fair metric because it is much harder for people who didn't grow up in a traditional community to marry young. I think the fair metric is just a stable family. Most people on this forum don't have that.

[Outcast9428]

The most authentic conservative is a man who puts his money where his mouth is and lives a life that is Godly and righteous. In America, @fschmidt has frequently pointed out that there are these Old Order Mennonites, these Amish folks and similar communities that live the truest to Biblical morality. Utah is where you'll find the most authentic conservatives in America, with strict Muslim communities being a close second. You'll find that these communities have a strong sense of togetherness, are close to one another and stand up for those in their groups. They all have very large families. This makes them healthy communities, and they grow more rapidly than other communities. Birth rate and a strong sense of community, with strictly enforced social control, is what makes a healthy community...

Most of the "Neo-Traditionalists" are just tryhard millennials who watched a few episodes of Mad Men on Netflix and think: "Hey, that 1950s stuff is pretty cool lets do that!" Throw in some antisemitic memes from 4chan and there you have it... the Neo-Tradionalist. I'd like to know the number of children the average Neo-Traditionalist has, compared to those closed off, strict, orthodox religious communities. I bet few of these young idealists will ultimately "walk the walk" as well as they "talk the talk". Would love to be proven wrong; time will tell.

For the Amish, yeah I definitely agree they’re the most conservative. I think if we are just talking about day to day people though it becomes more debatable. I’d say I’m more on the neo-traditionalist side, along with all my friends, whereas my dad is more orthodox traditionalist but I’d say I’m definitely further to the right then he is (although I think his commitment to his principles in other ways are even stronger then mine are).

[fschmidt]

For the Amish, yeah I definitely agree they’re the most conservative. I think if we are just talking about day to day people though it becomes more debatable. I’d say I’m more on the neo-traditionalist side, along with all my friends, whereas my dad is more orthodox traditionalist but I’d say I’m definitely further to the right then he is (although I think his commitment to his principles in other ways are even stronger then mine are).

Are you married? Kids?

[Outcast9428]

For the Amish, yeah I definitely agree they’re the most conservative. I think if we are just talking about day to day people though it becomes more debatable. I’d say I’m more on the neo-traditionalist side, along with all my friends, whereas my dad is more orthodox traditionalist but I’d say I’m definitely further to the right then he is (although I think his commitment to his principles in other ways are even stronger then mine are).

Are you married? Kids?

Not yet but I am in a relationship that has a VERY strong potential for marriage. She’s an incredibly loving and sweet girl. I honestly think if I proposed to her that she would say yes at this point but it’s still too soon for that. I’m planning on proposing in July if things continue to go well.

And yes I want to be the sole breadwinner while she is a stay at home mom. I think she’s well suited to domesticity and that she’d be happy to live a domestic, married life.

[Outcast9428]

@MarcosZeitola I do think you have somewhat of a point that neo-traditionalists often don’t walk the walk. But I’m not sure if that’s always for lack of effort. My friend messaged some 10,000 girls on dating apps and still is nowhere near being married. I know he’s trying but he is 28 now and while he would like to have a lot of kids I doubt he’d be able to have more then three at the pace he’s going at.

[Outcast9428]

@MarcosZeitola and @fschmidt

By the way, neo-traditionalists are definitely not the same as faux/pseudo traditionalists. A faux traditionalist would be someone who claims to be traditional but still sleeps around, watches f***ed up porn or likes doing fetishy crap in the bedroom or doesn’t want to be the breadwinner/provider to his family and wants his wife to work full time (when she should be at home).

I think there’s a difference between not perfectly living up to the traditional lifestyle in every way as opposed to completely just not even understanding it or making blatantly stupid excuses for not following it.

For example, a person can still be a traditionalist if they live a moral life but don’t necessarily go to church every weekend. I don’t think it benefits us to set the bar too high or else nobody will bother trying to reach it. We should obviously stick to the core principles and not allow people like CaptainSkelebob for example call themselves traditionalists just because they dislike Marxism and feminism but almost everybody falls a little short of their own ideals in some way. Excessive purity spiraling is bad for a movement. Nobody is perfect but we all agree on the basics which is that love, morality, and family are the most important values and should be at the center of life.

That being said, I do think we should still lend more respect to people who are living a more traditional lifestyle then we ourselves are without necessarily casting out everybody who isn’t quite as traditional as we ourselves are.

Even Tsar and Cornfed, I still think I’d call them flawed traditionalists because they are passionate enough about traditional values that the label of right-leaning liberal just doesn’t suit them even though I think they don’t really get what traditionalism is about. In a way they are actually too extreme to really be traditionalists.

[Tsar]

@MarcosZeitola and @fschmidt

By the way, neo-traditionalists are definitely not the same as faux/pseudo traditionalists. A faux traditionalist would be someone who claims to be traditional but still sleeps around, watches f***ed up porn or likes doing fetishy crap in the bedroom or doesn’t want to be the breadwinner/provider to his family and wants his wife to work full time (when she should be at home).

...

Even Tsar and Cornfed, I still think I’d call them flawed traditionalists because they are passionate enough about traditional values that the label of right-leaning liberal just doesn’t suit them even though I think they don’t really get what traditionalism is about. In a way they are actually too extreme to really be traditionalists.

I'm a little curious what are some reasons you don't think that I am a traditionalist? I do agree that I am extreme.

It takes someone who has extreme viewpoints to change the world. I want a traditional world much like the Roman Empire but with more of a Renaissance values and Medieval chivalry.

I think you're more about conservative traditionalism but I am more of a type of extreme or archaic traditionalism.

[Tsar]

@MarcosZeitola I do think you have somewhat of a point that neo-traditionalists often don’t walk the walk. But I’m not sure if that’s always for lack of effort. My friend messaged some 10,000 girls on dating apps and still is nowhere near being married. I know he’s trying but he is 28 now and while he would like to have a lot of kids I doubt he’d be able to have more then three at the pace he’s going at.

Do you mean that he swiped right on 10,000 girls or did he actually send them a first message?

I have also swiped right on at least 10,000 girls.

[Outcast9428]

@MarcosZeitola and @fschmidt

By the way, neo-traditionalists are definitely not the same as faux/pseudo traditionalists. A faux traditionalist would be someone who claims to be traditional but still sleeps around, watches f***ed up porn or likes doing fetishy crap in the bedroom or doesn’t want to be the breadwinner/provider to his family and wants his wife to work full time (when she should be at home).

...

Even Tsar and Cornfed, I still think I’d call them flawed traditionalists because they are passionate enough about traditional values that the label of right-leaning liberal just doesn’t suit them even though I think they don’t really get what traditionalism is about. In a way they are actually too extreme to really be traditionalists.

I'm a little curious what are some reasons you don't think that I am a traditionalist? I do agree that I am extreme.

It takes someone who has extreme viewpoints to change the world. I want a traditional world much like the Roman Empire but with more of a Renaissance values and Medieval chivalry.

I think you're more about conservative traditionalism but I am more of a type of extreme or archaic traditionalism.

Too soft on the bdsm stuff, also the polygamy stuff and the threesome stuff isn’t very traditional.

[Outcast9428]

@MarcosZeitola I do think you have somewhat of a point that neo-traditionalists often don’t walk the walk. But I’m not sure if that’s always for lack of effort. My friend messaged some 10,000 girls on dating apps and still is nowhere near being married. I know he’s trying but he is 28 now and while he would like to have a lot of kids I doubt he’d be able to have more then three at the pace he’s going at.

Do you mean that he swiped right on 10,000 girls or did he actually send them a first message?

I have also swiped right on at least 10,000 girls.

Mostly sent messages. I mean, I think the dating apps are a terrible way to meet people. I never had any success on them and I don’t blame anyone for not succeeding on dating apps. They really are f***ing terrible.

[WanderingProtagonist]

@MarcosZeitola I do think you have somewhat of a point that neo-traditionalists often don’t walk the walk. But I’m not sure if that’s always for lack of effort. My friend messaged some 10,000 girls on dating apps and still is nowhere near being married. I know he’s trying but he is 28 now and while he would like to have a lot of kids I doubt he’d be able to have more then three at the pace he’s going at.

Do you mean that he swiped right on 10,000 girls or did he actually send them a first message?

I have also swiped right on at least 10,000 girls.

Mostly sent messages. I mean, I think the dating apps are a terrible way to meet people. I never had any success on them and I don’t blame anyone for not succeeding on dating apps. They really are f***ing terrible.