Can Nations Ban Premarital Sex?

[Tsar]

The answer to this is yes. I admit that beginning in 2012, I actually had the idea to ban premarital sex. I began to think it was unfeasible. I would obviously be more nuanced in 2022 in regards to a ban on premarital sex, but this is more proof about how I am a visionary.

Indonesia banned premarital sex.

https://www.rt.com/news/567777-indonesi ... rital-sex/

@MarcosZeitola @Outcast9428

[MrMan]

The answer to this is yes. I admit that beginning in 2012, I actually had the idea to ban premarital sex. I began to think it was unfeasible. I would obviously be more nuanced in 2022 in regards to a ban on premarital sex, but this is more proof about how I am a visionary.

Indonesia banned premarital sex.

https://www.rt.com/news/567777-indonesi ... rital-sex/

@MarcosZeitola @Outcast9428

States banned premarital sex in the 1980s. I took a law class in high school. Fornication, adultery, and masturbation for hire were illegal. We learned about common law and also our state law. I think it was common law, but seduction-- sex in exchange for promises of marriage-- was also illegal. But the courts have nullified such laws in the US.

I saw a clip today on the news about Indonesia outlawing sex outside of marriage. The news said there were protestors, and showed this frame of what looked like a tiny, spread out group of protestors. I wondered if there was more than a dozen.

Let this be a warning to all you sexpats who want to defile the virgins of Indonesia. It's not a good country to go to for that. I'm guessing this outlaws same-sex sex in Indonesia, also.

The downside I saw of the article was penalties for disagreeing with the majority Muslim party. They already put people in prison for trumped up blasphemy laws. They even put the governor of Jakarta in jail for saying something like don't let people tell you your going to Hell over surah such and such in the Al-Qur'an-- the verse that says not to have non-Muslim leaders.

[Outcast9428]

When it comes to premarital sex, my opinion on it is truly culturally relative.

Indonesia banning it, for example, is acceptable to me, because the culture prizes virginity before marriage a lot more then other cultures do. From what I understand, arranged marriages are not uncommon in Indonesia even if they aren't necessarily standard practice. This law, in Indonesia, is in line with the cultural expectations there and I do think foreign sexpats who try to sleep with Indonesian virgins should be jailed or thrown out of the country.

If any state in the US made a law like that though, I'd be like "wtf are you people doing?" No matter what the logical benefits may be, you can't criminalize a behavior that 97% of the population has engaged in. Its not realistic to legally punish 97% of the population, nor to threaten them with legal punishment. If governments want to make certain behavior less common, they would need to use propaganda first to change people's minds and then maybe you could outlaw it to further push the overton window. Hell I'm not even against making laws that the majority of the population is against. But its a matter of degree. If 97% of the population is going to think you're batshit crazy for making this law then its not going to work. If you make a law that only 30% or 40% of the population agrees with though, you're basically catering to your base of support, which, is legitimate.

[Outcast9428]

If Indonesia is going to ban premarital sex though, they need to lower the minimum age of marriage. To have it at 19 years old for girls is ridiculously high. How can they pride themselves on being a traditional society while having such an absurdly high minimum age of marriage?

[Tsar]

When it comes to premarital sex, my opinion on it is truly culturally relative.

Indonesia banning it, for example, is acceptable to me, because the culture prizes virginity before marriage a lot more then other cultures do. From what I understand, arranged marriages are not uncommon in Indonesia even if they aren't necessarily standard practice. This law, in Indonesia, is in line with the cultural expectations there and I do think foreign sexpats who try to sleep with Indonesian virgins should be jailed or thrown out of the country.

The problem would be that the law will likely allow corrupt police officers to extort foreigners at will. Lets say you're an unmarried couple from another country visiting Indonesia as tourists... maybe you're engaged, maybe just dating, but you cannot sign into a hotel because an unmarried couple cannot stay in one hotel and check in; they will require marriage certificates under the new law. If you are caught with a non-married partner... police may say: "Here, give us a bribe and we won't mention a thing."

The law will be incredibly bad for the tourism sector. Never mind tourists being unable to screw Indonesian girls (good thing IMO) but now they would not even be able to screw their own boyfriend or girlfriend on a trip. Whoever thought of this law is not a very practical or bright person and the problems are legion.

Banning premarital sex for a country that heavily relies on its tourism industry is plain ridiculous when the law applies to ALL visitors to the country, not just ton foreigners who have sex with Indonesian citizens without marriage, or Indonesian citizens who sleep around... if that was the case, it would honestly make perfect sense to me from a traditionalist perspective but to more or less kill your tourism industry over it is insane lol. They're gonna miss out on so many young Australians and Brits going to Bali... resorts will suffer. Economy will hurt.

Yes, I agree. However, there's the logical side of things. Do you really think that a country would cause a diplomatic incident by arresting two foreigners or pay their tax revenue to imprison foreigners? I think that such a thing probably wouldn't happen because it's not rational to waste money trying to care about the morals of foreigners. Maybe it can apply to foreign residents of Indonesia but I don't think it would be applied to tourists unless the tourists were having sex with local women.

[Tsar]

If Indonesia is going to ban premarital sex though, they need to lower the minimum age of marriage. To have it at 19 years old for girls is ridiculously high. How can they pride themselves on being a traditional society while having such an absurdly high minimum age of marriage?

I agree. A country with 19 set as the minimum marriage age for girls is not traditional.

[Tsar]

If Indonesia is going to ban premarital sex though, they need to lower the minimum age of marriage. To have it at 19 years old for girls is ridiculously high. How can they pride themselves on being a traditional society while having such an absurdly high minimum age of marriage?

I agree. A country with 19 set as the minimum marriage age for girls is not traditional.

[Cornfed]

They should make a legal distinction between wife class and whore class females and just ban pre-marital sex by or with wife class females.

[Cornfed]

They should make a legal distinction between wife class and whore class females and just ban pre-marital sex by or with wife class females.

And how would such a distinction be made?

Females could register as whores or not by a certain age.

[Cornfed]

Oh right. Hahaha. I don't think many women would voluntarily register as whores lol. But you essentially mean an opt out system?

If they don't voluntarily register as whores they are assuming the responsibility of being a good wife and the consequences if they fail to live up to that.

[Cornfed]

Oh right. Hahaha. I don't think many women would voluntarily register as whores lol. But you essentially mean an opt out system?

If they don't voluntarily register as whores they are assuming the responsibility of being a good wife and the consequences if they fail to live up to that.

And what of the expectations of men? Does the same system apply?

Men would be required to not have sex with wife-class females other than their own wives.

[MrMan]

If Indonesia is going to ban premarital sex though, they need to lower the minimum age of marriage. To have it at 19 years old for girls is ridiculously high. How can they pride themselves on being a traditional society while having such an absurdly high minimum age of marriage?

I haven't been keeping up with these laws. Apparently, that one is two years old. That's crazy. For the whole time I was there, my understanding was that 17-year-olds were adults there. So if they wanted to marry, it wasn't against the law as far as I knew.

I just read this:
>>Indonesia’s 1974 Marriage Law permits girls as young as age 16 to get married. However, under Indonesia’s 2002 child protection law, anyone under the age of 18 is considered a child. These competing laws create a situation where girls still marry young despite legally being children.

On September 17, 2019, Indonesia announced that it was raising the minimum age requirement of brides in order to end child marriage. Now, women have to be 19 before they can get married. It is expected that this new motion will open young women up to new opportunities that were previously only available to young men. The country hopes to see full, legal implementation of this change within the next three years.
However, this new motion may not curb child marriages completely. Families can appeal to religious courts to have their children unofficially married off before they reach the legal age. As a result, around 1 percent of Indonesian girls are still getting married before the age of 15.<<<
from https://borgenproject.org/indonesia-end ... 0children.

For me the ethical issue is if the girl's body is old enough to have children. If she's at full height at development at 16, then why shouldn't she be allowed to marry if her parents (or more specifically her father if she has one) agree to it? I think they were kowtowing to liberal feminist thought.

There are definitely some negative aspects to living in a predominantly Muslim country--- those loud screaming onions everywhere, waking you up way too early with the worst-sounding chanter/singers they can put on tape, putting the person with the worst singing voice on the microphone to chant the Al-Qur'an. That's an Indonesian thing. I think Arabs pick someone with a decent singing voice. There is also blasphemy laws they used to accuse Christian preachers who are having an impact. The Saudis go to extremes restricting females preventing normal functioning of family life (what guy wants to be involved in all the grocery shopping) or having to wear a cloth garbage bag from head to toe.

But at least there is some resistance to the sexual revolution stuff and also the LGBT agenda. They had backed off on LGBT junk in Indonesia at one point. Now maybe this law will outlaw same-sex sex altogether. There were some bencong/banci types in parts of Jakarta during the years I was there, like gross-looking middle aged dudes wearing women's clothing and dancing while hustling money instead of acting like a normal beggar.

Once I was at the mall area at Blok M, where I'd go to eat at the food court, but outside. This guy, probably in his 20's, came up to me wearing shorts, sandals, and just a vest. He said, "two hundred." That was weird. Normally beggars set by the road and said nothing. I was going to give him 200 rupiah, about 2 cents, so he would go on his way. But he said, $200. (Maybe he said 200,000 rupiah....I don't remember. That's 20 bucks.) It took a split second to register, and that guy was gone. It was like he virtually disappeared. I think he could see the look of revulsion appear on my face as I figured he was selling his wares and quickly disappeared. I felt insulted that he thought I might be interested in such a thing. Maybe he could get big bucks from some expats and went around hitting them all up and leaving fast if they didn't show interest so he wouldn't get arrested.

Jakarta is a big bustling city. A friend of mine told me about 'squeeze me' bars where expats would go, feel up the girls, take them home, and give them 'taxi money' to get home. He'd go there with clients and take a secretary with him if his wife was out of town so he wouldn't get felt up. There was a big news story about the police busting a house of prostitution when I was there around 2017 or 2018. In the late 1990's, I got hit up to play 'ciki ciki' by a couple of prostitutes. One was like a 9 or 10, who had just lain with two Chinese dudes. I'd gone to a cheap losmen, and I had no idea what it was used for until it was late and the city was shut down. I should have been suspicious of a $2 motel. I forked out the big bucks, $10, for a real hotel the next day. There is some of this sordid stuff going on, but it seems to be more niche rather then widespread like the reputation Bangkok has.

But a year or so after my wife were married, one hotel in Padang wasn't going to let us stay there together if we couldn't show them a marriage certificate. It might have had to do with a city ordinance or possibly just hotel policy, but I think other hotels were like that. My wife showed something like a wedding photo. That combined with the wedding rings might have been what got us a room together. We'd been on a bus for two or three days. I needed to share a room with my wife after being pent up for that long.