Why would an unmarried man or happily married man hate MGTOW

[Yohan]

@Yohan How do you think a minimum wage increase to like 1200 yen per hour in addition to the child allowances discussed in the other thread would effect young Japanese people?

This is not an easy question. I think, minimum wage is very low in Japan, most large companies pay anyway more.
I see no much difference, such increase will benefit only a few low income families...

1 - There is a huge difference in payment of salaries between large cities and rural areas.

In Tokyo my salary around 1980 was already more than 1200 yen per hour as an employee with a regular contract, (about 240.000 yen monthly + additional fixed overtime yen 40.000,- = yen 280.000 monthly) but in 2023 only young people doing occasional work (and of course without wife, children and own house etc.) and old people after retirement doing some easy part-time work will accept such a pay per hour.

2 -
In rural areas most people have their own business, like farmer for fruits, rice, etc. or have their own boat for fishing/seafood business when living on islands etc.

Many Japanese everywhere prefer their own business, like small shop, barber, plumber, bakery....
How does this minimum wage increasement help them?

3 -
Not all Japanese are willing to use additional money for meaningful shopping or for their children. Believe me, the Japanese society has also its problems, and I guess many low income, low educated Japanese will use such extra money only for nonsense, like buying alcohol, cigarettes, or are into gambling activities like pachinko, or into betting like motorboat racing, horse racing, bicycle racing etc. Young single men will spend it in a nightclub....Many low income, low educated Japanese also have a lot of debts for buying just everything on creditcard or car loan etc.

4 -
Further it is important to point out that Japanese taxes and Japanese obligatory insurances are the highest in Asia, and almost (but still a little bit lower, maybe 5 to 10 %) of those in Europe.
If you get a little bit more, expect to receive - depending on your income - around 20 to 40 percent less of this increase.

I think, it is more about election of politicians, rather empty talk and promises to get more votes....I am sceptical, some little extra money for some families will not change anything here in Japan.

[MrMan]

Maybe MGTOW don't feel accepted by other men because, if you tell them they shouldn't run their lives based on fear, they engage in ad hominem attacks, insult your wife, etc.

That’s true, a life dominated by fear is no life at all. MGTOW is a defeatist ideology. They understand the problem but glorify having no solution to it.

Most MGTOW guys are older and have more life experience than you. They thought the found "the one", got married, and then got completely f***ed over so they become MGTOWs through life experience. Don't talk shit about them giving up until you're at least middle aged because many of them were optimistic like you were until they got shit on by life such as being divorced and ruined financially and socially.

I can understand the middle aged or divorced man whose wife had just left him in a divorce saying MGTOW stuff. You can let a man like that vent and heal up. What concerned me was to see men in their 20's who had never married listening to them and accepting their defeatist attitude.

Because you're privileged which is why you can't understand something like this. Your average 20 something year old man now gets treated like shit and watches Chad and Tyrone get all of the women. A man should be in his sexual prime in his 20's but instead good guys are forced into becoming incels and MGTOW. There's no such thing as a "defeatist attitude" if it's the truth. That's like telling a guy in a wheelchair to just start walking again and calling him a defeatist if he tells you the reality that he can't physically do it.

If you ask 999 women out that might fit your criteria and they all say no, and it takes 1000 to find one, why give up? Asking strange women out might not be the right technique. There are also other countries with other cultures in the world. Maybe 45% of Americans are married. Maybe half of those marriages survive.

It might also be worthwhile to back off from staring at screens and develop some social skills, to practice proper hygiene and grooming, to dress decently, and go out and meet people.

Your message wasn't rude and insulting. I have encountered MGTOW who insult those who disagree with them, along with their family members. We had one on here who was like that a few years back.

[Kalinago]

no man,if he could freely fornicate with multiple hot girls on a consistent basis would get married or have a LTR.

[MrMan]

no man,if he could freely fornicate with multiple hot girls on a consistent basis would get married or have a LTR.

I might have been able to, but didn't try it for moral reasons.

Prostitution is fornication, and I was in Indonesia after the Asian monetary crisis. A bar of soap was a nickel. The fancy buffet at the country club was $2. I would imagine prostitution would have been quite cheap also. That's an easy way to fornicate on a consistent basis. Why don't all expat men in low-wage developing countries who are on expat wages just hire prostitutes constantly instead of marrying if your assertion is true?

[Yohan]

If you ask 999 women out that might fit your criteria and they all say no, and it takes 1000 to find one, why give up? Asking strange women out might not be the right technique. There are also other countries with other cultures in the world. Maybe 45% of Americans are married. Maybe half of those marriages survive.

It might also be worthwhile to back off from staring at screens and develop some social skills, to practice proper hygiene and grooming, to dress decently, and go out and meet people.

Why give up? I never gave up totally, but I never had any support from anybody and the only what I had was my own salary, but this was by far not enough what Western women expect from men.

Yes, I gave up to find any reasonable woman in Europe at that time and decided to look for a partner somewhere else. 999 or 1000 what makes the difference if any woman you see is either already taken or has around her 5 or 8 boyfriends or shows up with ridiculous unrealistic demands - in my personal experience women were demanding gifts for meeting even for the first contact - diamond rings, expensive tickets for events etc. up to a thoroughbred horse.

A huge number of young women in Europe are living in a fantasy world, they want to be equals, but expect the man to provide everything what they wish without even thinking one second about from where this money should come from and of course without any intention to give anything in return except 'my body is all what I have'. This was always like that.

Dating can be outrageous expensive in Europe and very frustrating if you look out for a nice long-term female friend - and if you cannot afford to offer anything you might end up with girls from the garbage - hateful feminists, drug abusers, alcoholics, girls from jail with a criminal record, violent, stupid and lazy girls unwilling to learn or work anything.

You mentioned hygiene, let me tell you girls of this kind are often dirty too, not only dirty minded, but dirty on their body, living in dirty rooms, wearing dirty clothes - other girls are often attracted by violent thugs because they offer an exciting life-style which no honest man can offer, or even into near-incest with distant relatives if they are living within a large family.

----

No surprise, if disappointed men in Europe like myself and many others in a similar situation are looking out for ideas like MGTOW. -
I really developed a deep mistrust, even up being afraid to talk to Western women as their reaction is unpredictable and often irrational.

My opinion about women changed significantly however when I was starting to travel outside of Europe. I have to say I received a better welcome and was better treated by foreigners than by my own countrymen - regardless if in Turkey, Iran, India, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Japan ...
everywhere I was showing up outside of Europe, both, men and women, were listening to me, were willing to help with introduction, nobody was making fun out of me or replying to me with scornful insults....

Not everybody will agree with me, but I recommend international/interracial dating to every man who has problems finding a female in his own Western country. I also recommend to consider relocation outside of Europe, if possible. Get on an airplane...

[Yohan]

@Mercer

This sounds like retarded, bluepilled boomer advice. Your average person spends the entire day starting at screens. Women are on social media and dating apps all day and reject any men that are not attractive. Women judge your entire personality by your looks, and I'm not talking about your worthless, cliche looksmaxxing advice. They judge you based on things that you can't change such as frame, bone structure, etc. Why does every bluepilled retard give the same patronizing advice about showering and dressing nice when that literally does nothing for attraction? Even if you try to meet women they will ignore you and treat you like shit if they're not sexually attracted to you. They might use you as a beta cuck at best.

Maybe you should write instead of

They might use you ...

They will misuse you ...

Otherwise your reply to MrMan is excellent, I appreciate it, fully agree with what you say.

[Kalinago]

no man,if he could freely fornicate with multiple hot girls on a consistent basis would get married or have a LTR.

I might have been able to, but didn't try it for moral reasons.

Prostitution is fornication, and I was in Indonesia after the Asian monetary crisis. A bar of soap was a nickel. The fancy buffet at the country club was $2. I would imagine prostitution would have been quite cheap also. That's an easy way to fornicate on a consistent basis. Why don't all expat men in low-wage developing countries who are on expat wages just hire prostitutes constantly instead of marrying if your assertion is true?

You don't understand the meaning of 'freely',if you think some jew in the heavens is going to torture you or punish you for fornicating,especially endlessly,you are obviousely under duress,and not under a free choice.

as for prostitutes,as humans we need validation and prostitution does not offer that,though it is a nice choice if you want ease and some fun here and then,but fornicating for free with multiple hot women is the dream for sure,atleast for a time,some men want to settle down and have romance and 'love',this is built in our evolutionary biological wiring atleast for most people,even though today this seems untenable in practice and is a idealistic fantasy.

[MrMan]

Most MGTOW guys are older and have more life experience than you. They thought the found "the one", got married, and then got completely f***ed over so they become MGTOWs through life experience. Don't talk shit about them giving up until you're at least middle aged because many of them were optimistic like you were until they got shit on by life such as being divorced and ruined financially and socially.

I can understand the middle aged or divorced man whose wife had just left him in a divorce saying MGTOW stuff. You can let a man like that vent and heal up. What concerned me was to see men in their 20's who had never married listening to them and accepting their defeatist attitude.

Because you're privileged which is why you can't understand something like this. Your average 20 something year old man now gets treated like shit and watches Chad and Tyrone get all of the women. A man should be in his sexual prime in his 20's but instead good guys are forced into becoming incels and MGTOW. There's no such thing as a "defeatist attitude" if it's the truth. That's like telling a guy in a wheelchair to just start walking again and calling him a defeatist if he tells you the reality that he can't physically do it.

It might also be worthwhile to back off from staring at screens and develop some social skills, to practice proper hygiene and grooming, to dress decently, and go out and meet people.

This sounds like retarded, bluepilled boomer advice.

That's the problem I was talking about right there. You responded like an obnoxious middle school student to someone you disagreed with. A lot of MGTOWs like to spread their defeatist negativity, and then when someone disagrees, they engage in ad hominem attack-- attacking the messenger. Probably most MGTOW types I've interacted with have done that. This is a prime example.

Besides, I'm classified as Gen-X. My mom is a baby boomer, and my dad is a bit older than the baby boomers.

Your average person spends the entire day starting at screens. Women are on social media and dating apps all day and reject any men that are not attractive.

Find a woman who isn't on apps all the time. Look around. There are some short, fat, unattractive men out there who have wives. It happens. About 45% of people are married. Not all of them are good-looking. If you are below average for looks and want an above average woman, you may need something else to offer, even if it's just being assertive enough to find a woman who doesn't care much about looks or who just likes your particular below average looks for some reason.

This guy had a goal, and just kept at it until things worked out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-N-zxHZj8I

He's on the far left of the bell curve for height and eventually managed to get married: https://www.google.com/search?q=peter+d ... E3xruv5UaM

I can't really tell if men are good-looking, but I can tell if some men are ugly, and there was one guy in Indonesia I knew who really wasn't attractive, but he was so interesting to talk to. He had the most charming personality. He was a great listener. He worked with this really, really pretty Filipina. It turns out, she'd agreed to marry him at one point, but they broke off the engagement because his mother did not approve when he met her. Looks-wise, they probably weren't a good match. But he was such a good listener, he made you feel like a million bucks when you talked to him. My wife even commented on it after she met him also. You meet him, and he invites you out to a social event. A very friendly guy. He was bold at flirting with women, I noticed. Some time later, I saw online that he had married an above-average looking woman who wasn't fat.

I would imagine he could get pretty girls to date him based on cultivating his skills at listening and conversation, and tenacity.

Women judge your entire personality by your looks, and I'm not talking about your worthless, cliche looksmaxxing advice. They judge you based on things that you can't change such as frame, bone structure, etc. Why does every bluepilled retard give the same patronizing advice about showering and dressing nice when that literally does nothing for attraction? Even if you try to meet women they will ignore you and treat you like shit if they're not sexually attracted to you. They might use you as a beta cuck at best. @MrMan, you might as well tell someone not to forget to wipe their ass too because you think you can just talk down to people and act like they're retarded even though you have no clue what you're talking about.

You seem to me to be the guy who might need that advice also. Make sure to wipe and wash your hands afterward.

It could be women pick up on the obnoxious attitude you display in this post. Maybe the negativity and the middle-schoolish attitude repels women. A lot of people avoid those who say depressing stuff all the time. Who wants to be depressed? It seems like you want to wallow in depressing ideas, which make your own life worse.

If you are single and can't find a woman, enjoy life as a single person. If you found a girlfriend, you could complain about your girlfriend. If you married, you could complain about your wife. Complaining and negativity might even drive a woman away, or keep them from being interested. I suspect you have some of your identity wrapped up in this whole 'black pill' MGTOW nonsense. Let go of it. Why let something that depresses you define you? It's like a really bad religion.

Are you picky about a woman's looks? The advice about going abroad may actually work for a lot of people. I met my wife while working abroad. If I were a widower, after grieving and healing up, if I decided to remarry I might consider Indonesia again as a place to find a wife.

I've got a friend whose about 400 pounds who was able to find a just-over-30 Filipina wife with a pretty face. She seems like a really sweet girl, too. He said she liked larger guys.

If dating apps don't work for you, you may need to find a woman by other means. Women are probably a lot more picky in an online scenario. There are girls who aren't interested in a guy unless he shows interest in her first. Then they start considering. Some of them are really picky, but some of them will consider a man you might not think they would. It's just like some men are really picky about looks, but you see men going around with women you might consider unattractive, either because they aren't picky about looks or different features appeal to them.

"Social skills" are a f***ing joke when you're judged by the way your face looks.

Now you have me curious to see this face of yours. Is it anything like the guy below? If I were in his shoes, single, and wanted a wife, I might consider finding one who is blind.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gooni ... 0907190643

[peregrino]

Find a woman who isn't on apps all the time. Look around.

This is nonsensical. Women are on apps all the time, that's what they do now. Maybe that's a good reason to look for a blind woman after all?

[Yohan]

If you are single and can't find a woman, enjoy life as a single person. If you found a girlfriend, you could complain about your girlfriend. If you married, you could complain about your wife. Complaining and negativity might even drive a woman away, or keep them from being interested. I suspect you have some of your identity wrapped up in this whole 'black pill' MGTOW nonsense. Let go of it. Why let something that depresses you define you? It's like a really bad religion.

What you write here does not make any sense and is contradictory.

You write if you cannot find a woman, enjoy life as a single person - and you write, MGTOW is nonsense. But to enjoy life as a single person BECAUSE you cannot find a woman is EXACTLY what MGTOW is telling you.

MGTOW is telling you if a woman does not want you there is nothing what you can do about it. However MGTOW also says, It's not always your fault if women reject you.

MGTOW does not hate women, but is urging them to reconsider their criteria how to choose their men - for example to be a bit less materialistic and to give a young man with good intention who is unable to offer more than an old rich man also a chance, or to refuse to socialize with thugs.

If dating apps don't work for you, you may need to find a woman by other means. Women are probably a lot more picky in an online scenario. There are girls who aren't interested in a guy unless he shows interest in her first. Then they start considering. Some of them are really picky, but some of them will consider a man you might not think they would. It's just like some men are really picky about looks, but you see men going around with women you might consider unattractive, either because they aren't picky about looks or different features appeal to them.

What has this really to do with apps? Women were always picky, with or without online dating.

However while women might be picky, they are judging men using wrong criteria. A thug has always his girls around him, and so has any old rich man, or how many stupid girls are running hysterically after any male celebrity dreaming he will only love me- while ordinary men (including myself at a time where online dating did not exist) are rejected.

You write 'Complaining and negativity might even drive a woman away, or keep them from being interested' - but you should better blame women themselves for choosing the wrong men.

We have to make it clear, it is not the man choosing the woman, it is the woman who is choosing one man out of many men showing up and approaching her. HER decision to accept or reject, and NOT HIS decision.

Women as victim? Might be some of them find themselves beaten up in a hospital crying 'he should not do that to me' - or even in a coffin, might be if they are left over with three children from three different fathers and crying 'Where are all the good men''....

I get the impression, you are blaming always men (and also MGTOW) if some women have their problems, but this is simply said not true.
Women are not children and should be kept responsible for their own decision.

[Outcast9428]

@Yohan

I'm not sure where people are getting the impression that young girls dating significantly older guys is responsible for the problems in the dating market. My college was kind of out in the middle of nowhere. There were no "older men" for young girls to date. The main problem is two things... One was that the frat guys hoarded basically the entire female student body. The second is that the explosion of acceptance for the LGBT stuff has made a lot of girls bisexual. On college campuses sometimes you get the feeling that the girls are having sex with each other more then they're having sex with guys.

The explosion of female bisexuality in particular I think is driving a lot of the artificial scarcity that men have been experiencing strongly in the 2010s. In progressive areas, I swear that the majority of girls have had sex with another girl. Its absolutely insane. Surprisingly, I think the female bisexuality is actually more responsible for the modern artificial scarcity of female attention towards men then hookup culture is. Because the 90s and the 2000s had hookup culture too but it didn't seem like men were struggling anywhere near as much back then as they have from the 2010s onward.

And feminists know this... That's why they promote what they call "political lesbianism." The explicit intention behind it is for women to get their sexual/emotional needs satisfied with other women instead of with men. And then the elites psychologically attack men and get them to accept female bisexuality by thrusting images and videos of girls kissing each other in movies in order to get idiotic men to support having more acceptance for bisexuality because they want to see girls kissing each other.

People on this forum are angry that I criticize and attack degeneracy so much... But the fact is, sexual degeneracy is the trojan horse that unleashed the floodgates of feminism. It is men's biggest weakness and the biggest reason for why men knowingly, or unknowingly support feminist agendas. Because they can't give up or conquer their degenerate desires. Degenerate men also add to the ranks of feminist women by corrupting them and grooming them into perversion and stoking a subconscious hatred for men as a result. Once a man conquers his degenerate desires is when he can truly become a foot soldier against the feminist agenda.

[MrMan]

Find a woman who isn't on apps all the time. Look around.

This is nonsensical. Women are on apps all the time, that's what they do now. Maybe that's a good reason to look for a blind woman after all?

Young men and young women are similar in this regard, but there is variability. Some people get out their phone when they talk with you instead of looking at you. Others interact like normal human beings are supposed to. If you were on a college campus in the hang-out area, the square, the whatever-the-call-it on the campus, you could look around and see who is not looking at a screen.

[MrMan]

If you are single and can't find a woman, enjoy life as a single person. If you found a girlfriend, you could complain about your girlfriend. If you married, you could complain about your wife. Complaining and negativity might even drive a woman away, or keep them from being interested. I suspect you have some of your identity wrapped up in this whole 'black pill' MGTOW nonsense. Let go of it. Why let something that depresses you define you? It's like a really bad religion.

What you write here does not make any sense and is contradictory.

You write if you cannot find a woman, enjoy life as a single person - and you write, MGTOW is nonsense. But to enjoy life as a single person BECAUSE you cannot find a woman is EXACTLY what MGTOW is telling you.

If our posters here whose names start with 'M' who promote black pill are MGTOW, that is not the message I am seeing.

What I am seeing is not to enjoy being single, but rather lament about it, thinking depressing thoughts about how bad things are, how ugly you are, how small your member is, how short you are, and why no woman would ever want you.

One can be single and have a different mindset....while looking for a wife, I will enjoy my life. Sure, I'd rather have a relationship that leads to marriage, but while I'm single, I'll enjoy it while I'm single.

As opposed to 'Woah is me! No one will ever love me! All women are bad and don't want a woman like me. They always swipe left (or right or whichever means no.)"

MGTOW is telling you if a woman does not want you there is nothing what you can do about it. However MGTOW also says, It's not always your fault if women reject you.

MGTOW does not hate women, but is urging them to reconsider their criteria how to choose their men - for example to be a bit less materialistic and to give a young man with good intention who is unable to offer more than an old rich man also a chance, or to refuse to socialize with thugs.

Are you the married man who identifies as 'MGTOW'? If so, you are the only one I've encountered who seems to fit this criteria.

Most other MGTOW I have encountered insult those who disagree with them, also.

What has this really to do with apps? Women were always picky, with or without online dating.

Online probably makes them a lot more picky. If they see a menu of hundreds of men, then just look for the over-six-foot man (in the US where we use feet) who is really fit and good-looking. If some of these women meet a man in person, personality, charm, confidence, or the fact that he paid her some attention just might be a factor. That thought process in her mind of determining whether this man is attractive or appealing can take place that takes into account other factors can take place.

If I were single and using dating apps, I'd probably be looking at the top 95% for looks, also. In actual dating, I probably went to the top 89% for actual dates before I met my wife. (Just from my perspective.) Her personality, her seeming to reciprocate interest in me were factors. One of them was an Asian who had a bit of a British accent, which was endearing. This was before online dating, but that wouldn't have come out in the picture. IMO, women are probably even more influenced by personality variables.

However while women might be picky, they are judging men using wrong criteria. A thug has always his girls around him, and so has any old rich man, or how many stupid girls are running hysterically after any male celebrity dreaming he will only love me- while ordinary men (including myself at a time where online dating did not exist) are rejected.

These are probably not the best type of women, either.

You write 'Complaining and negativity might even drive a woman away, or keep them from being interested' - but you should better blame women themselves for choosing the wrong men.

As men, we can work on ourselves more easliy than we can work on all women out their. There is also variability among women. They aren't all the same just as we are not all the same.

We have to make it clear, it is not the man choosing the woman, it is the woman who is choosing one man out of many men showing up and approaching her. HER decision to accept or reject, and NOT HIS decision.

So if you are single, and a beached whale looking woman, a 350 pound ball of a woman with very short hair, sagging features, the stubble of a few whiskers coming out of a chin, and a booming loud voice chose you, does that mean you have to date and marry her? If a man approaches a woman, he (typically) chose to approach her. If a girl is giving off body language signals, but you aren't interested, you can go the other wa.

Women as victim? Might be some of them find themselves beaten up in a hospital crying 'he should not do that to me' - or even in a coffin, might be if they are left over with three children from three different fathers and crying 'Where are all the good men''....

I get the impression, you are blaming always men (and also MGTOW) if some women have their problems, but this is simply said not true.
Women are not children and should be kept responsible for their own decision.

There are lots of women who make foolish choices, and lots of women who blame men. Several years ago, I read about 'A Mile in Her Shoes'. Women chose to wear high heels, torture devices on their feet. Somehow feminists rationalized blaming men for this and got men to walk a mile in high heeled shoes. Left-wing brass in the military were basically ordering servicemen to march in women's shoes. That seems like a really good example of wrongly blaming men for women's problems. Maybe one out of 100 men could put some pressure on his girl to wear high heels. There is a tiny percentage of men in the fashion industry, and some of them are probably exclusively homosexual. I think a lot of us don't care, though like makeup, shoes that thrust pelvises forward might have a (manipulative) psychological effect on us.

Women blaming men gets too much credence in western culture. That still doesn't mean it is helpful to men to have a defeatist attitude. For some of these men it is like the idea that the dating scene is hopeless is a tenant of their religion.

[MrMan]

@Yohan

I'm not sure where people are getting the impression that young girls dating significantly older guys is responsible for the problems in the dating market. My college was kind of out in the middle of nowhere. There were no "older men" for young girls to date. The main problem is two things... One was that the frat guys hoarded basically the entire female student body. The second is that the explosion of acceptance for the LGBT stuff has made a lot of girls bisexual. On college campuses sometimes you get the feeling that the girls are having sex with each other more then they're having sex with guys.

That's really sick. This sick woke stuff has affected the South, but I don't get the impression from my interaction with college students that most of them are into the gay or bi stuff, but I haven't asked around about this. It still seems to be a niche thing, with a few male trannies going around and some others who just seem gay.

If I were young and single, and a girl were gay, bi, or identified as a feminist, she would be out of my consideration set.

[MrMan]

@MrMan, you are acting like a disrespectful little brat to a smart elder on here. @Yohan is wiser and has more life experience than someone like you. It's good that @Yohan set your bluepilled garbage straight. If you notice I respect @Yohan even when he disagrees with me because he has something you bluepilled beta cucks don't have - actual life experience and wisdom.

While Yohan and I might disagree on a few issues here and there, I don't recall any unpleasant conflict with him on the years I have been on this forum. But your post demonstrates the problem I spoke of earlier-- MGTOWs who like to name-call when someone disagrees with them, like you are doing above. Yohan is more in line with your MGTOW ideas, so you get along. I am not being rude to you or calling you names.

I suspect one of the ways that MGTOW gets radical adherents is by insulting those who disagree. It might work on men who have low-IQs or who are desperate to please or be acknowledged, or averse to being insulting. It becomes a culture. So if anyone posts some common sense about not having such a nihilistic philosophy about dating, other MGTOW do as they have seen modeled for themselves and insult those who disagree. Am I wrong about this? That's a toxic cultural practice.

I post comments to help you and your fellow pity-wallowing black pill posters some help and advice to help you out of your depressing philosophy, and I am met with insults. I would like to see your comment on my thread where I suggest finding a blind wife overseas.