Without children, my alternate future ...

[Winston]

Some people have their own purpose in life. If you have no purpose then yes not having kids and a woman means you have no purpose, because the kids become your purpose. Not for everyone but we are not everyone we are one person!

FYI I have a great woman but we ain't wantin' no kid!

Yeah I know. Why do some people think that if you have no kids or wife, then your life has no purpose? Isn't it the opposite? Those things tie you down, take away your freedom, and enslave you, so that you can't follow any other purpose. Such people are thinking in terms of society's narrow mindset. There are many other purposes in life besides marriage and children. What's wrong with a purpose to travel the world and experience different cultures? Or to visit all the museums of Europe and take pictures? Or to tour all the national parks of the US several times over? Those are wonderful purposes and experiences. And they don't take away your freedom or enslave you like marriage and children do.

[Winston]

Check out these pros and cons lists of having children posted in The Child Free Life forums. They are quite comprehensive and make you see things in perspective. Do any of you still want kids after seeing this?

http://www.thechildfreelife.com/forum/v ... =5&t=11856

CONS
Would change my sense of self in ways I can't predict (ditto for husband)
Would change my relationship w/husband (*possibly* for the better-though I doubt it; would strain it either way)
Would feel resentful that mothers still end up doing more childcare/housework no matter how feminist father is
Pregnancy is often fraught and uncomfortable, even when it's easy
Have to deal with other mothers/unwanted advice
Would up my overall anxiety level
Husband would feel pressured to make more money/I would feel pressure to stay home
Less sex/cuddling/time for intimacy/romance
Might feel "touched out," as many mothers claim
Less time for hobbies, reading, movies, cooking elaborate meals, etc.
Harder/more expensive to travel or even just run errands
Body would change, possibly forever, possibly in very negative ways (tearing, prolapse-eek)
More time spent in doctor's offices, hospitals, dentist, opthamologist, orthodontists' offices, etc.
Would likely face constant guilt/judgment (from self, other mothers, relatives, friends)
Less time for personal health (eating right, working out, sleeping)
Less money - for YEARS (and we're not extremely well off now). Less for retirement savings. Less for little luxuries
Would feel pressure to buy a house vs. continuing to rent an apt.
Couldn't ever NOT be a mother - might feel trapped/suffocated
Risk of post partum depression
Might not have anything in common w/child or have vastly dif. personality/difficulty relating
Dislike the idea of breastfeeding but would feel compelled to do so
House would be messier, noisier, and smellier
Might feel extremely unattractive/unfeminine/frumpy for long stretches of time, which would tank my self-esteem and romantic life
Too many possible life-altering decisions - and I agonize over trivial decisions.
Chance of huge disagreement between self and husband; would fight more, I'd wager (we rarely argue now)Might cause awkwardness between relatives (if I disagree w/parenting advice or they think my kid is too ____, or they give my kid sugary snacks, or whatever)
Hate to be disciplinarian, but would have to (or risk good-cop/bad-cop scenario w/husband)
No family nearby, which would be sad and difficult
Would have to deal w/a pre-teen/teenager. UGH.
Would have to deal w/unpleasant cultural influences (everything from Disney Princess cr*p to drugs, sex, drinking, wild friends)
Sense of helplessness (can't always protect them/ensure they succeed & have an easy life)
Would be expected to pay for college - and holy h*ll, that's going to cost a lot in 18+ yrs.
All sorts of other unknown possible tragedies - unimaginable emotional pain and you can't ever bail.
Would constantly worry I was screwing up

PROS
I enjoy babies and young children
Get to buy cute clothes, toys, stuffed animals
Get to decorate a baby's room (choose paint, artwork, etc.)
Get to pick out names
Would finally fit in with many of my friends/most other women my age
[Easily found] sense of purpose
Get to feel that "world smiling on you" feeling, as a pregnant woman/mother of a tiny baby (you def. get to be the center of attention for a while. IMHO it fades fast, though)
A *chance* of built-in elder care (no guarantee)
Would thrill my family
Get to see my child playing with cousins, grandparents - sense of life continuing
Someone to leave stuff to, someone who would want to hear about my childhood, wedding day, etc. (I loved hearing my parents talk about that stuff)
Would open eyes to what my mom went through/help us relate even better
Get to experience world through eyes of child again/excuse to play
See what happens when you mix husband and my genes
Get to see husband as father (and I do think he'd be a great one)
Heart enlargement thing parents claim happens
Sense of accomplishment ("growing"/raising living being)

Hmm, yeah. I think we made the right decision (funny how my pro list is highly superficial).

Pros

-play, fun and laughter
-unconditional love
-cute clothes, room decoration etc
-would make our parents happy and bring us closer to them
-company when I am old (worried due to age difference and family history I may significantly outlive my husband)
-satisfy the baby craving within
-fit in with people our age and have something to offer in "kid" conversations
-holidays are more exciting
-new challenge and something to be proud of
-create something together with our love


Cons

-less sleep which is a big deal to us since we both have sleep disorders
-financially drained and we already have debt
-no local family so we'd be doing it "on our own"
-less travel options because I refuse to be one of those people with an infant or toddler on an airplane!
-much less opportunity to eat out, something we enjoy and do often (again I refuse to be one of those people...)
-less time / money to take care of myself (i.e. exercise, vitamins, relaxation)
-feeling guilty for leaving the other parent home to go out with your friends which I know you shouldn't but parents seem to anyway
-vacation time is consumed by school holidays
-relationship strain and parenting conflicts
-being embarassed by behaviour
-not being able to have a phone conversation without interuption
-have to carefully plan errands
-forget leisurely things like shopping weekends because they would be too bored
-tv/movie choices would be limited and monopolized
-our work schedules would be dictated by the school / daycare schedule
-less opportunity for sex, cuddling and just communicating
-production (we would be limited to in vitro or adoption)
-body changes affecting my self image and possibly my partner's attraction to me
-trying to work meals around kid's pickiness
-may delay retirement since we don't even want to consider starting until age 37 & 41
-what about the family pet's important place in the family? It always gets screwed by the new baby...
-always putting someone else's needs before your own...yes this is selfish but also mandatory for parenthood and in my opinon, a major con !


Hmm....well there is no doubt which list is longer anyway!!!!

Also, here are eloquent thoughts of a woman who realizes that being a mother causes more misery than it's worth. Her words are so insightful and true.

http://www.thechildfreelife.com/forum/v ... =5&t=11856

Having children is the only thing in the world you cannot undo. Besides suicide and homicide. Maybe manslaughter. So basically, death and children. And maybe contracting an STD.
You can get married...and divorced. You can accept a job...and quit a job. You can buy a house...and move. You can drop out of school...and graduate college at 95 years of age. All of the "big" life decisions can be undone.
But children are forever, no matter how miserable they make you.
.........................

The majority of the work falls on the mother. The majority of the change affects the mother. The physical burden is all on the mother. The emotional burden falls on the mother. The mother is expected to be delighted that a needy little creature will change every single thing about her world. No matter if she has a paying job or not, she will never, ever stop working. Worrying. Spending money and time. Twenty-four hours a day on duty. On call. If she is lucky enough to escape to a job outside the house she ends up thinking about all the things she must do when she gets home. She has to worry about what is happening to her child when she is not there. Who is watching the child. What they are learning, good and bad. She will deal with the guilt of having a life outside of her child. She will scrutinize everything she does. The father will continue to work. Continue to play. The father will never understand the physical and emotional changes that happen to a woman. There will always be isolation, guilt and sadness.

Work. Too much damn work. It seems like parents, mothers in particular, can bitch about how horrible it is to be a parent, as long as they end with "...but it's all worth it because it's the greatest thing in the world!"
If it were so great, why would parenting be the topic of a never-ending stream of jokes? Sometimes humor is used to mask misery. And repeating "it's the most important job in the world" and "it makes me so happy" over and over might make it start to seem true. Mind over matter.

Her last paragraph is so true, about the "parenting being the greatest thing in the world" cliche as a self-illusion designed to mask the misery.

[djfourmoney]

Merge Threads Please

[Winston]

Merge Threads Please

I know of no way of merging threads on this forum, only splitting them. I've just created a FAQ threads page anyway, to help reduce duplicate threads of the same issues.

viewtopic.php?t=10859

[S_Parc]

Unfortunately, in the western world, we don't really have a framework for even the nuclear family to flourish.

In some South American and Asian societies, the community/neighborhood, itself, is an extended family and that really helps in raising children. Thus, parents don't have to be perfect, but ok, and the kids will turn out fine.

Here, there's pretty much little hope of anything working out w/o a lot of planning ahead, like homeschooling, the Scouts, getting your kid an internship at a friend's company, etc. Unfortunately, most parents do not have a "War Room" strategy (which includes uncles/grandparents, etc) of raising kids in the US and thus, many fall through the cracks and become depressed or despondent in latter years.

All and all, people pretend that the choice is theirs but in reality, they're just following some pre-programming.

[The_Hero_of_Men]

Unfortunately, in the western world, we don't really have a framework for even the nuclear family to flourish.

In some South American and Asian societies, the community/neighborhood, itself, is an extended family and that really helps in raising children. Thus, parents don't have to be perfect, but ok, and the kids will turn out fine.

Here, there's pretty much little hope of anything working out w/o a lot of planning ahead, like homeschooling, the Scouts, getting your kid an internship at a friend's company, etc. Unfortunately, most parents do not have a "War Room" strategy (which includes uncles/grandparents, etc) of raising kids in the US and thus, many fall through the cracks and become depressed or despondent in latter years.

All and all, people pretend that the choice is theirs but in reality, they're just following some pre-programming.

Even if this were true, people can always choose to follow this pre-programming or not.