Russia's Invasion of Ukraine, aka "Putin's Special Operation"

[Winston]

I don't get why Ukrainians are willing to give up their lives for land. That's a stupid senseless trade. No way is land more valuable than human life. Also it's stupid that European leaders won't compromise with Putin or make any concessions. All they want is total victory.

So if China invades Taiwan and starts killing people Taiwan should just give their land to China? That sets a precedent that one nation can just take over another nation by killing people.

If Ukraine gives into putin he is just going to keep going - the rest of Ukraine and other nations. Poland, Moldova, Latvia, Estonia and more.

You gotta think these things through.

Also Ukrainians don't want to live under Russian tyranny. Some of them do but most do not

There's no evidence that Putin wants to capture more European countries. That's paranoid fearmongering. Even if he wanted to, he doesn't have the power or manpower to do it. His army is inept and not as good as Hitler's. If he can't even capture Kyiv, how can he capture all of Europe? That makes no sense and is a contradiction that Prof. Jeffrey Sachs and Prof. John Mearsheimer have pointed out many times. So the EU leaders don't make sense. They claim Putin can't take Kyiv, but he can take all of Europe? That's a discrepancy.

Either way, there's no logic in sacrificing lives for land. Land is not that big of a deal. One can just move abroad. You don't own the land, so why would you die for it? Only brainwashed NPCs think that way and would die for nothing. Self-aware beings don't do that.

You either live under a foreign tyranny or a local tyranny. There's no difference. Especially in America. Mel Gibson pointed this out in the movie "The Patriot" from 2000.

[Voyager1]

Not everyone can just 'move abroad'. Many have family ties, property and work.

What you're saying just encourages nations to indiscriminately bomb civilian populations so they can obtain land, which is exactly what putin is trying to do. he thinks that by killing civilians - babies, toddlers, women, children that Ukraine is going to capitulate and give up their land.

Zelensky would be ill-advised to make any land swap deal. putin has never kept his word.

[Yohan]

I don't get why Ukrainians are willing to give up their lives for land. That's a stupid senseless trade. No way is land more valuable than human life. Also it's stupid that European leaders won't compromise with Putin or make any concessions. All they want is total victory.

@Winston

You should see it from the other side.

I do not get why Russians are willing to give up their lives since more than 3 years to occupy about 20 % of a much smaller neighbouring country. Is their own vast but undeveloped land still not large enough?

It is not the first time that Russia is doing this, it invaded Hungary, killed the president and invaded Czechoslovakia arresting its president and sent him to a prison in Russia.

Russia invaded 4 small Japanese islands shortly after WWII after the Japanese surrender to USA and is refusing to give them back to Japan - therefore Russia remains the only country in the world without any peace treaty with Japan. Russia best friend is North Korea, a country which has no diplomatic relationship with Japan.

North Korea is sending 10.000s of its soldiers to help Russia to occupy Ukraine, but many of them died. For what?

About the Ukrainians, I consider their military actions as a form of self-defense. They do not want to live in a country controlled by Russia.
The Russian soldiers at the beginning of the war were already only a few miles away when they tried to occupy the international airport in Kyiv. Their orders were to remove the Ukrainian government but they failed.

About Europeans, many of them considering the history of their nations, they made bad experience with Russia in the past and do not want to live in a West-East Europe again, divided by the infamous 'iron curtain border'.

[Voyager1]

Either way, there's no logic in sacrificing lives for land. Land is not that big of a deal.

Life without land is meaningless. Look at those Palestinians who lost their homes and apartments in Gaza. Sleeping out in the open concrete. Some of their children starving.

Look at the Ukrainians who lost their apartments due to putin's bombings. Nowhere to go.

Life without land is meaningless

[Yohan]

There's no evidence that Putin wants to capture more European countries. That's paranoid fearmongering. Even if he wanted to, he doesn't have the power or manpower to do it. His army is inept...

This is not true. Putin was seriously threatening Finland and Sweden (which has not even a land border with Russia) with military actions should they dare after the invasion of Ukraine to join NATO.

Both countries quickly joined NATO given up their long time of neutrality because they consider Putin's threats to become true anytime.

Also the defenceless 3 small Baltic countries and Moldova were mentioned by Putin to expect military intervention by Russia.

Funny that there is even a Russian talk going on to demand that Alaska should be given back to Russia. Well, but I guess this is not so easy....

[Yohan]

So far the Trump-Putin summit is not looking good for Ukraine. MSNBC explains why below. What you think @Yohan? What do you predict the outcome will be?

I never expected any result out of such meeting.
USA and Russia cannot decide what to do without the agreement of EU/Ukraine.

EU has about 450 million people and with non-EU-members UK, Norway and Ukraine it has more people than USA/Russia together and the productivity of EU is by far higher than those of Russia.

What do Putin and Trump really think? Do they really believe that together they can decide whatever they want in this world and that they are able to ignore the entire EU, treating all European governments and Ukraine like not existing? Both leaders, Putin and Trump, are obviously suffering of megalomania.

[Winston]

Wow. Lavrov below talks about human rights abuses in Ukraine that the EU is not addressing, such as the banning of the Russian language in Ukraine, which no democratic country would ever do, and needs to be addressed. And the Russian citizens of Ukraine being abused too. What do you all think?

[Voyager1]

Wow. Lavrov below talks about human rights abuses in Ukraine that the EU is not addressing, such as the banning of the Russian language in Ukraine, which no democratic country would ever do, and needs to be addressed. And the Russian citizens of Ukraine being abused too. What do you all think?

I lived in Kyiv and Eastern Ukraine and there was none of that. In fact everyone spoke Russian. I have only heard stories of people giving you shit in Western Ukraine if you speak Russian and not Ukrainian.

There is no such thing as a "Russian citizen of Ukraine". Either you are a Russian citizen or a Ukrainian citizen. You could be a Russian citizen living in Ukraine but nobody cares.

Once again one of putin's mouthpieces promoting worthless propaganda.

There are no human rights abuses in Ukraine other than those being performed by russian soldiers

[Winston]

Wow Prof. John Mearsheimer tells it like it is about the Russia vs Ukraine on UnHerd. The other guy that follows, Syed who disagrees with him made good points too.



Prof. Jeffrey Sachs explains why the West's attempt to weaken Russia and turn it into a rump state after the Cold War has brought everything up to this point.

[Winston]

Either way, there's no logic in sacrificing lives for land. Land is not that big of a deal.

Life without land is meaningless. Look at those Palestinians who lost their homes and apartments in Gaza. Sleeping out in the open concrete. Some of their children starving.

Look at the Ukrainians who lost their apartments due to putin's bombings. Nowhere to go.

Life without land is meaningless

Not for travelers and freespirits and nomads. You forget that many Palestinians live abroad in Jordan and even the US. Many Ukrainians live abroad too, in Europe and the US. So moving abroad is possible. Why don't they all do it? What's the big deal about land? Land is not supposed to be owned and is part of nature. That's what the wise Native Americans believed. Why not think that way? Regardless there's no sense in sacrificing human lives for land. Why is land worth more than life? That's stupid and illogical.

[Winston]

I don't get why Ukrainians are willing to give up their lives for land. That's a stupid senseless trade. No way is land more valuable than human life. Also it's stupid that European leaders won't compromise with Putin or make any concessions. All they want is total victory.

@Winston

You should see it from the other side.

I do not get why Russians are willing to give up their lives since more than 3 years to occupy about 20 % of a much smaller neighbouring country. Is their own vast but undeveloped land still not large enough?

It is not the first time that Russia is doing this, it invaded Hungary, killed the president and invaded Czechoslovakia arresting its president and sent him to a prison in Russia.

Russia invaded 4 small Japanese islands shortly after WWII after the Japanese surrender to USA and is refusing to give them back to Japan - therefore Russia remains the only country in the world without any peace treaty with Japan. Russia best friend is North Korea, a country which has no diplomatic relationship with Japan.

North Korea is sending 10.000s of its soldiers to help Russia to occupy Ukraine, but many of them died. For what?

About the Ukrainians, I consider their military actions as a form of self-defense. They do not want to live in a country controlled by Russia.
The Russian soldiers at the beginning of the war were already only a few miles away when they tried to occupy the international airport in Kyiv. Their orders were to remove the Ukrainian government but they failed.

About Europeans, many of them considering the history of their nations, they made bad experience with Russia in the past and do not want to live in a West-East Europe again, divided by the infamous 'iron curtain border'.

I would agree with that too, that Russian soldiers sacrificing their lives for land is stupid too. But they are not in the war for land. They believe it is a noble and holy war to defend Russia from evil Western forces. That's what Putin has brainwashed them to believe. They also have Stockholm Syndrome too, as Syed explained in the UnHerd interview above.

Btw Russia only invaded Georgia and Ukraine when they declared their bid for NATO membership. If they didn't do that and had stayed neutral then Putin wouldn't have invaded them right? Why don't all countries just stay neutral? NATO is an anti-Russia alliance that has declared Russia to be an enemy. Isn't that antagonistic? Why did NATO even need to exist after the Cold War? Why didn't they disband like the Warsaw Pact did? Then there would be peace right?

[Winston]

Wow. Lavrov below talks about human rights abuses in Ukraine that the EU is not addressing, such as the banning of the Russian language in Ukraine, which no democratic country would ever do, and needs to be addressed. And the Russian citizens of Ukraine being abused too. What do you all think?

I lived in Kyiv and Eastern Ukraine and there was none of that. In fact everyone spoke Russian. I have only heard stories of people giving you shit in Western Ukraine if you speak Russian and not Ukrainian.

There is no such thing as a "Russian citizen of Ukraine". Either you are a Russian citizen or a Ukrainian citizen. You could be a Russian citizen living in Ukraine but nobody cares.

Once again one of putin's mouthpieces promoting worthless propaganda.

There are no human rights abuses in Ukraine other than those being performed by russian soldiers

Sorry I meant Russian people living in Ukraine. That's what Lavrov meant. Isn't it true that the Russian language is banned in Ukraine? Why would Lavrov say that? Maybe he means Russian is banned in Ukraine schools and media? Why don't the Russian people in Ukraine just move back to Russia then?

[Voyager1]

Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine because it's Ukraine. Russian is not "banned".

Ukrainian and Russian aren't too much different